Let's Talk Morgoth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Makar · 03-06-2005, 08:36 PM

I try not to read to much into Tolkien, symbolically. Especially since I read that bit in the prologue about "applicability". Beyond that, it seems that Morgoth being bound to the earth helped reinforce that he was no longer of Aman or the Valar, which separated themselves from the earth. All "worldly" evil seems to have come from him. (Ungoliant being an example "external" evil, not a direct result of Melko's meddling). As always, correct me if I'm wrong.

Aiwendil · 03-06-2005, 08:53 PM

Quote:

who did J.R.R. Tolkien mean Morgoth to be (symbolically)?

He intended Morgoth to be Morgoth.

As for Morgoth's dissemination of power: I think that this is an interesting feature and is one way in which Tolkien's mythology diverges somewhat from Christian myth. It is tempting to say that this brings a Manichean strain into the mythos.

burrahobbit · 03-07-2005, 03:27 PM

The taint of Melkor exists in every bit of matter that exists. This taint can not be removed without destroying everything and starting over. The bodies of Men and Elves are made of the stuff of the earth. Thus, Evil always exists inside of us a something to overcome. It's sort of Eru's little test to make sure that you are a worthwhile person.

alatar · 03-07-2005, 04:05 PM

Melkor, unlike the other Valar, sought dominion and this required a piece of himself to be given up. Like when Aule created the Dwarves, they had no soul/freedom until it was given to them by Eru; Melkor sought to take away freedom, and in order to do so he needed to take a piece of himself and seed the item, soul, etc as he did not have the power/ability that Eru has.

Others created, and he perverted. To twist or destroy the thing that his brethren created, he again had to yield part of himself. In later ages his 'power' therefore was still considerable, yet if he were stripped of all of the 'help' and devices that he had seeded, then one would see that his power had declined as it was diluted amongst his servants and slaves.

But, to get back to the original question, all of these seeds became part of the world though having their origin in Melkor.

And I think that JRRT had Lucifer/Satan in mind when he wrote about Melkor as there are many similarities between the two.

burrahobbit · 03-09-2005, 02:39 AM

No matter how much it might have been diluted, it was still there, and there isn't anything that you can do to change that. That's the point. All you can do is deal with it as it pops up (in your heart).

alatar · 03-09-2005, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

No matter how much it might have been diluted, it was still there, and there isn't anything that you can do to change that. That's the point. All you can do is deal with it as it pops up (in your heart).

Agreed. What I mean regarding 'diluted' is that Melkor gave away pieces of himself so that his 'strength' was diminished. Those who received a seed would then pass it along as able.

So today we may all have a little bit of Melkor in us - nothing like what Sauron got - then again, we are not Eldar, Edain, etc, as our blood has intermingled and thinned.

Some succumb to Melkor's call, others defy it.

burrahobbit · 03-09-2005, 10:21 AM

Sauron didn't get anything. Melkor didn't make him.

03-07-2005, 03:27 PM	#3
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	The taint of Melkor exists in every bit of matter that exists. This taint can not be removed without destroying everything and starting over. The bodies of Men and Elves are made of the stuff of the earth. Thus, Evil always exists inside of us a something to overcome. It's sort of Eru's little test to make sure that you are a worthwhile person. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

03-09-2005, 02:39 AM	#5
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	No matter how much it might have been diluted, it was still there, and there isn't anything that you can do to change that. That's the point. All you can do is deal with it as it pops up (in your heart). __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

03-09-2005, 10:21 AM	#7
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Sauron didn't get anything. Melkor didn't make him. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

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03-06-2005, 08:36 PM	#1
Makar Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Oklahom Posts: 44	I try not to read to much into Tolkien, symbolically. Especially since I read that bit in the prologue about "applicability". Beyond that, it seems that Morgoth being bound to the earth helped reinforce that he was no longer of Aman or the Valar, which separated themselves from the earth. All "worldly" evil seems to have come from him. (Ungoliant being an example "external" evil, not a direct result of Melko's meddling). As always, correct me if I'm wrong.

03-07-2005, 04:05 PM	#4
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	Melkor, unlike the other Valar, sought dominion and this required a piece of himself to be given up. Like when Aule created the Dwarves, they had no soul/freedom until it was given to them by Eru; Melkor sought to take away freedom, and in order to do so he needed to take a piece of himself and seed the item, soul, etc as he did not have the power/ability that Eru has. Others created, and he perverted. To twist or destroy the thing that his brethren created, he again had to yield part of himself. In later ages his 'power' therefore was still considerable, yet if he were stripped of all of the 'help' and devices that he had seeded, then one would see that his power had declined as it was diluted amongst his servants and slaves. But, to get back to the original question, all of these seeds became part of the world though having their origin in Melkor. And I think that JRRT had Lucifer/Satan in mind when he wrote about Melkor as there are many similarities between the two.