Descent into Hell!!! Rarrr!...Well, sort of...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Makar

What about the most obvious decent and return, that of Gandalf? Like in Dante he goes down and then works his way up and when he comes back he is transformed.

This is a very good point. I often wonder if the symbolism of Moria is intended to be similar to the idea of Dante's levels of Hell. Moria has halls and levels, it has it's own 'satan' in the figure of the Balrog, and demons in the form of the Orcs, and it is clearly a place where untold suffering has happened. I'm sure that as a Catholic and having gone through a classical, grammar school type education, that Tolkien would have been more than aware of Dante. Certainly, even if he was not consciously drawing a link, then the idea of this would stay in the mind as it is all very lurid. I wonder if it says anything in any of the books - alas I have not the time to look this up thoroughly this morning. But Gandalf's fall in Moria is an excellent example of someone entering the underworld, in the classical sense of the underworld.

Originally Posted by Fordim

There's one thing missing from the descents into "hell" in LotR, though, and that's the hero's meeting with some now-dead heroic-yet-problematic figure from the past. Odysseus discovers Achilles in Hades (and his mother), Dante goes down there with Virgil and meets up with any number of heroic figures from the past (along with other disreputables, of course). So in addition to the threat of failure there is the promise of meeting with someone who can give useful guidance. A 'fallen' hero.

That doesn't happen in Tolkien's tale, so I'm curious about this absence

Good question! My take is that perhaps as Tolkien preferred the Northern myths to the classical ones, he did not necessarily follow the 'rules' associated with classical mythology.

There's another level (sorry) to the idea of descending into hell and re-emerging from it. The idea of descending to hell is vey much a Christian one, but what was there before Christianity? The idea of the Underworld voyage was still very much in existence. One of the theories about burial chambers is that they could have a dual use and members of the clan/tribe would enter these and take mental journeys into the underworld - whether through use of psychotropic substances, meditation or simply force of belief. Newgrange was said to be a dual purpose tomb. But there are also underground tunnels called Fogou, particularly common in Cornwall, which seem to serve little purpose and it is mooted that people would enter these tiny spaces and creep beneath the earth in order to enter the underworld.

This to me links to the Hobbits' experience in the Barrow. Here they very much enter the underworld, they are even dressed in finery as though they are heroes themselves. There is the very real threat of sacrifice, and they meet with a figure from the underworld. I love this whole episode as it is so powerful and symbolic. And Frodo of course becomes the hero of the piece by challenging this underworld figure and returning to the outer world.

So I think there are several descents into hell and many sacrifices before we get to the ultimate descent and sacrifice, that at Mount Doom. And even this is interesting, as it involves two figures, both Frodo and Gollum. Their ends are almost mirror images of each other. Both are destroyed physically and mentally. Yet only one receives his 'heavenly reward'. And this is odd, because it is the one who gives up his physical being, Gollum, who does not (as far as we know) receive a spiritual reward.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Lindolirian

The point is that there has to be a challenge that makes success just that much sweeter, or actually worth trying.

I remember my Economics teacher saying that "for a test to be genuine, there should always be a possibility that you will not make it." Needless to say, he makes totally brain-wringing exams that bring out the worst in our grades. But sooner or later, we'll realize (as I am about to) that these tests would make college Econ a piece of cake for us. Or so I hope.

That's just the thing that all the characters went through. For a moment in "Hell" they'll learn more than they ever will in ordinary, everyday experiences. Take Aragorn, for instance. If he decided not to go through the Paths of the Dead, he would probably not exhibit such leadership skills as he did in the Battle of the Pelennor. It is definitely easier to command an army of your kinsmen than one of ghosts. And I'm sure he was able to utilize what he has gained from these experiences in his reign.

Originally Posted by Fordim

There's one thing missing from the descents into "hell" in LotR, though, and that's the hero's meeting with some now-dead heroic-yet-problematic figure from the past...So in addition to the threat of failure there is the promise of meeting with someone who can give useful guidance. A 'fallen' hero. That doesn't happen in Tolkien's tale, so I'm curious about this absence

Taking my previous example, do we not consider the king of the army as a "fallen hero"? After all, he was (probably) a noble and valiant king once. It was his wrong decision that made him fall. Now, he's an essential character that stopped Aragorn from becoming a "fallen hero" himself. At the same time, he pulled himself and his army out of the state of being fallen; they remain only as heroes as they helped win the war.

Excellent thread, Lush.

[Lush]

Thanks for the contributions, guys.

The Gollum thing is what really gets to me in all of this.

Yet only one receives his 'heavenly reward'. And this is odd, because it is the one who gives up his physical being, Gollum, who does not (as far as we know) receive a spiritual reward.

Actually I, for some reason, always envisioned that Gollum got his peace at last. Hence the fact that he falls in together with his Precious. At the point of his death he is corrupted beyond repair and it is as if the only way for him to finally end the torture is to die alongside the Ring.

This is why Mordor strikes me as a very interesting idea of Hell (or Hell-on-earth, perhaps, is more appropriate). It's certainly not a place where one can or should "abandon all hope" or anything like that in the Dante vein; and just like in the classical legends, it is still a place where one must achieve a certain task, but the idea behind it all, as it has been mentioned, is one of sacrifice. Which is not what the Greeks seemed to have had in mind at all (Odysseus sacrificing a sheep in Tiresias' honour notwithstanding ).

But what is the ultimate hell in Tolkien's creation? Is it, in fact, Mordor? Or does an ultimate, metaphysical hell even exist?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Lush

But what is the ultimate hell in Tolkien's creation? Is it, in fact, Mordor? Or does an ultimate, metaphysical hell even exist?

I think it possibly does, certainly for Saruman:

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

This is quite a horrific image, yet so simple and wholly unbloody. Here is one of the Istari who by rights ought to return to the west after his death, yet he is simply blown away to nothing. It is perfect, poignant and seems utterly final.

[Eruanna]

Lalwendë said:

I often wonder if the symbolism of Moria is intended to be similar to the idea of Dante's levels of Hell. Moria has halls and levels, it has it's own 'satan' in the figure of the Balrog, and demons in the form of the Orcs, and it is clearly a place where untold suffering has happened.

I have always thought that this held true.
As well as the symbols mentioned by Lalwendë there are other pointers.
The mere mention of Moria fills all of the fellowship with an unnamed dread. With the exeption of Gimli, of course, and yet even he is described as "...a smouldering fire was in his eyes". What could be more 'hellish' for an Elf, than to spend days and nights in a place where the sun or the stars never shine.
In the myths and legends of many cultures, Hell or the Underworld is reached by crossing water. At the entrance to Moria we have Sirannan, the Gate-stream.
There is also the Watcher in the Water. A twisted, snake-like, many limbed guardian of the entrance to the Underworld, like the many headed Cerberus perhaps?
Another symbol that struck me recently, is the mention of the holly that marks the entrance to the Gate. Holly was the symbol of the people of Hollin, who used the gate, to be sure. However, holly is an important plant in both Pagan and later Christian beliefs. In medieval times holly leaves would be placed around tombs, as a talisman against witchcraft and as a warning that evil spirits lurked.
On the other hand, Frodo and Sam's journey in Mordor always makes me think of a sort of purgatory, an ante-room if you will, to be endured before the actual fiery hell of Mount Doom, and Frodo, Sam and Gollum's eventual release or death.

[HerenIstarion]

The following is a part of conversation which took place between yours truly and Galorme (sorely missed member, btw) once upon a time, by PM long ago. Courtesy of said Galorme, who made a file of it and sent it back to me:

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Hell does not exist indeed. ... It may sound paradoxical a bit, but hell exists too, at the same time. The argument is the following. God (and as a result, Heaven) is Existence with a capital E, i.e. the source of all existence in general. Any thing opposed to God has the negative characteristics, still more Satan (and therefore hell). Therefore … the evil is not existent in itself but mere lack of Good … let me suggest you to think of God as of a fountain spraying good things from itself. One of the good things it flows off with is existence. The farer you get from the Fountain … more dry is the place, i.e. less ‘existent’. The ‘dry place’ is not created by ‘Fountain’, it is dry because it is far from it (and in this case the free will comes into play as the ‘dry place’ withdrew itself from the fountain and so became dry). So not God created hell, but Satan chose to place himself into hell exercising his free will. Therefore hell may be considered not as existent place created by God, but as a state of mind creature (any creature…) can drive itself into it case it freely chooses to do things against God's will. [so] any place (and any state of mind) apart from one in accordance with God’s will is hell in itself and by definition. [So] beings are not tortured against their free will, but by the chain of their choices place themselves in a position which in itself is a torture. Satan is less of a torturer than a most tortured being of all

Therefore, there need not be ultimate [meta]physical hell in ME.

(We've been through this in C-thread, haven't we? And in Tolkien and the Monsters too? And a number of other places as well? )

In the light of excerpt above, it may be of interest to recall Tolkiens sentences hinting that external factors reflect inner 'state of mind' of ainu class of beings, i.e., when Morgoth is in doubt and fear, he clothes himself in clouds, likewise does Sauron. I.e. - Mordor looks like hell because Sauron's mental and emotional whether follows his will's barometer (for in the case, the barometer leads the wheather, not vice versa), and barometer shows hell

Frodo's 'descent symbolism' is purely Christian. On the other hand (and praise be to Tolkien for it), it is not claiming too much - Frodo, even if a symbol of Christ, is also a symbol of pre-Christian times, and is mere human too. He is not perfect, and he's descent is not perfect - for only One was able to perform it perfectly. His failure is a failure of a Fallen human - though action is required on your own behalf and you should do all you can a little bit more, nothing can be done without Divine help nevertheless (thus uniting Boethian and Manichaean points of view). Gollum is Divine help in the case. But divine help is acquired through one's own actions - Gollum pitied - Gollum there to fall with the Ring.

Fallen hero re: It is as good there are no fallen heroes on the road. It would have been a mistake, hangover of classical age and Hades, where all souls go to be sad and silent (Elysium being later addition). In that kind of story, the 'hell-visitor' is usually alive, and the 'host' already dead. Besides, 'fallen' hero is no longer a hero, is s/he?

Rather hasty, I intend to elaborate later on

cheers

[wilwarin538]

I dont intirely agree with what your ideas of Hell are. In the Christian religion (which I am part of) which you have mentioned often in this thread, we do not believe that you can at all or at any point in time return to earth after being in Hell. You are also not sent to hell to finish a certain task. May I ask were it is some of you got those ideas? I have never heard them before. I am not saying they are wrong I am just saying I do not agree.

[elronds_daughter]

I ask were it is some of you got those ideas?

I believe they come from Catholicism. But don't quote me, I'm not an expert on such things as that. No, wait! That's purgatory...... Whoops. Sorry.

[davem]

There is a danger of conflating the Pagan, Christian & 'Middle earthian' ideas of the UnderWorld. In the Mystery Traditions the UnderWorld was a place of Light, the source of Life itself. These Traditions were cthonic & a candidate for initiation entered into the UnderWorld through caves (natural or man-made) to encounter the UnderWorld Powers & be re-born. Hence initiates were known as the 'twice-born'. In the UnderWorld one would encounter Powers which had to be faced & dangers which had to be passed through. If the initiate was successful he or she would emerge transformed by what they had experienced.

Certainly there is an echo of this in the journey of Beren & Luthien into Angband, where they encounter a terrrifying power of darkness & emerge with the Silmaril, source of Holy Light. The UnderWorld was, therefore, not in any way like the Christian concept of Hell - in fact Hell as a place of eternal damnation did not exist in the Mystery Traditions.

But we stray into some very profound symbolic areas - the Womb & the Tomb. One enters the 'womb' of the Earth Mother to be re-born but in order to reach it one passes through the 'tomb' of the cave & is 'interred'.

Tolkien makes use of these ideas but in a very 'Christian' way, to the extent that I think it can only be confusing to try & draw ideas from ancient Traditions into our attempt to understand events in Middle earth.Middle earth has its own rules & they are neither wholy Pagan nor entirely Christian. In orthodox Christianity the UnderWorld is a place of eternal damnation in the Mysteries it is a place of Light & liberation through darkness. In Middle earth it is something else....