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Old 03-02-2005, 04:04 PM   #1
Nurumaiel
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Because of Estelyn's urging, and the fact that I have a very convenient place to come popping back in, well... I've come popping back in. And I'm going to try to keep up this time. As for the first impressions from this chapter...

One thing that attracts my attention is the way Frodo and Sam seemed so fixed on fulfilling this quest. At the very beginning of the chapter, it is stated that they 'did look look... back to Gondor, to their friends.' They looked in the direction of Mordor. They weren't constantly talking of what lay behind, but what lay ahead. If I remember correctly, there are not many instances where they discuss lighter things concerning the Shire, etc.

Considering this constant looking ahead, and other instances, I feel rather urged to read faster, as if it might make the hobbits move faster. A great sense of time is given, or rather the lack of it. There seems to be some feel of a necessity to hurry, which is not only felt by the hobbits, but by the readers, as well.

When they're on the cliff-side, that sense of time is very clearly portrayed when Frodo says he grudges every hour, every minute (and more than once he repeats this). It is increased by the swift approaching of the storm, and gives a sense that there is more than one storm approaching, and that there is a need for hurrying. Everything seems rushed, though the words are still descriptive and steady. The atmosphere of leisure, that was present when the hobbits first set out from Bag End, is gone. It's quite enough to to make my heart quicken and my lips urge: "Hurry, hurry!"

Another thing that drew my attention is that Frodo is still able to laugh and enjoy himself. That overwhelming feeling of despair has not a tight grip on him yet. When he fell, he told Sam to stop chattering, and was feeling amused. Later he laughed at the knot on the rope. Not only is he laughing, but he's laughing frequently. It reminds me to keep my eyes open for how and when and where he falls more under the sway of the Ring, and loses much of his laughter.

One thing, one thing very brief, that impressed me, was the instance of Gollum and the rope. When Sam tied the knot, he (Gollum) appeared to be in great pain, but Frodo checked and found that the knot was loose, and perhaps even too loose. 'Sam was gentler than his words.' I don't know how I missed this in previous readings. Up until now I always imagined that Sam had some terribly ill feeling for Gollum and was unjustly cruel to him. Now it seems to me that Sam merely had a repulsion and distrust of Gollum, which made him mutter, and threaten, and be especially cautious, but... I can't recall any instance where he was actually cruel. He muttered, and such and such, but as far as my memory goes, he never inflicted harm upon Gollum until it was necessary in a way of defense. Am I forgetting something? It seems that Sam, as well as Frodo, had that thought of pity and mercy towards Gollum.
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:11 PM   #2
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Random thoughts...

In accordance with Nuru's thoughts above regarding Sam and Gollum, I came across a line I didn't remember, in which Sam sort of mocks Gollum after he tries to escape. Gollum says to them earlier:

Quote:
"And where are they going in these cold hard lands, we wonders, yes we wonders?"
Sam then says...

Quote:
"And where were you off to in the cold hard lands, Mr Gollum? We wonders, aye, we wonders."

Quote:
Since the ability to emanate light is attributed to the Elven rope, that comparison seems appropriate. (Esty)
Gollum seems averted to all sources of light -- the Sun and Moon, the elvish rope, and even the "bright eyes" of the Elves, whom he describes as fierce and terrible. We know that he was imprisoned by the Elves of Mirkwood, but perhaps the light associated with them makes his hatred for them even greater.

Frodo keeps referring to Gollum by his old name of Smeagol, deliberately repeating it whenever he talks to the creature. He's trying to remind Gollum that he had a normal life once, and that he can still be that person. It's a part of Frodo's idea that maybe he can help the poor thing out by showing him pity when few others have.
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:47 PM   #3
Fordim Hedgethistle
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One of my favourite chapters! I always reach it with such glee after having been away from Sam and Frodo for too long. And at long last – Gollum!!

It’s Gollum who really dominates the chapter, and he does so in some interesting ways. There’s some fascinating foreshadowing of his treachery, and of the bond that he shares with the hobbits:

Quote:
Sam looked and breathed sharply through his teeth. ‘Ssss!’ he said…Look at him! Like a nasty spider crawling on a wall.’
Quote:
As [Gollum fell from the cliff], he curled his legs and arms up round him, like a spider whose descending thread is snapped.
That’s two descriptions of Gollum as being like a spider in the course of only a few pages, not just that, but right at the beginning of his introduction to the story. The reference to Shelob could not be more clear, and thus in the very moment that he arrives he comes bearing with him the mark of his treachery. At the same time, the way Sam reacts to him is telling: “Ssss!” he says “sharply through his teeth.” This is an extremely Gollum-like sound and gesture, and it hints at the affinity that these three figures will come to feel for one another. Frodo’s understanding of Gollum is forged here. He has borne the Ring long enough to know almost at first glance that he and Gollum are a lot a like – there is a meeting of minds, or even souls, that Sam doesn’t understand, and this recognition is what allows the Quest to be fulfilled for it convinces Frodo to accept Gollum as his guide.

But the link between Sam and Gollum looks even further ahead to the moment upon Mount Doom when Sam will show pity to Gollum and not kill him. Sam, by that point, will have been a Ringbearer and thus understand Gollum the way Frodo does now. So if this initial meeting with Gollum contains allusions to his treachery, it also looks ahead to the moments and the virtue (Pity) that will allow that treachery to be overcome and even made to serve the purpose of the Quest. It’s compelling that the rest of the Quest is contained in this single moment: Gollum’s treachery and evil will combine with the Pity of the hobbits, there will be some kind of understanding forged between these different characters, that will somehow allow the ‘miracle’ to occur that puts the Ring into the fire.

But it’s not all fate and providence. These three characters are not just tools to an overwhelming plan, and this is made clear when Frodo misremembers Gandalf’s words to him. In “The Shadow of the Past” Gandalf says:

Quote:
“Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.”
But here, Frodo remembers it as:

Quote:
“Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.”
It’s on the basis of this that Frodo spares Gollum’s life. What I think is important about this is that while Frodo is responding to the words of Gandalf, he is not slavishly following them. He is not reacting to Gandalf’s precise words, but to those words as they apply to Frodo’s own particular circumstance. It’s the difference between remembering a lesson and actually having learned it. Gandalf told Frodo an important thing about Pity, and Frodo here is able to apply that lesson rather than just trot it out. In this moment, in this place, Frodo “fears for his own safety” and knows that he will be dealing out death not “in judgement” (which is, presumably, deserved) but “in the name of justice” (that is, using justice as a pretext to justify a selfish act).

So Frodo is being influenced by the memory of Gandalf, directed even, but he is not a passive tool – he is making a freely willed choice that is setting a series of events in motion in which Gollum’s evil will be in conflict with the understanding (love?) that he forges with the hobbits.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – Tolkien was a very good writer.
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Old 03-09-2005, 11:12 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle
One of my favourite chapters! I always reach it with such glee after having been away from Sam and Frodo for too long. And at long last – Gollum!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil
As for the chapter in general, I often find it a letdown to go back to Frodo and Sam and more mundane, dirty, and less rewarding journey they face after all the light and glory of Edoras, Fangorn, the Battle of Helm's Deep, and the great powers of Orthanc and the Palantir. It generally takes me until the Black Gate or Ithilien to really get into the swing of their quest, consequently leaving me with an under-appreciation for this stage of Frodo's quest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lathriel
I get really interested in the story line with Aragorn and co. when I'm suddenly reading about Frodo and Sam again. It takes me a few pages before I have grudgingly accepted that there's no going back to the other story (to exagerate a little)
I have hesitated to respond to this chapter in part because of the sentiments which are expressed here by Fordim, Formendacil, and Lathriel. I had asked the question in our discussion of the previous chapter, and no one really took up the point: Why did Tolkien choose to divide literally the journeys of the two groups of the Fellowship into two separate Books? Why did he not entertwine them? What has he gained by splitting the action this way?

We have a "three day gap" in Sam and Frodo's journey as well as a wrenching pull away from the heroic concerns of Aragorn and Co. I cannot now remember what it felt like to make this readerly jump when I first read the book, but now I find it very strange indeed.

I also wonderwhy, suddenly, we are in such a hostile terrain. Even with the physical travails of Merry and Pippin and of Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas, the land they covered was never this barren. Yes, yes, I know where Sam and Frodo are. I just wonder why, so suddenly, we are brought into the harshness of their struggle.

One answer, of course, is that the journey of Sam, Frodo and Gollem is not part of the 'realism' of LotR. It does not belong to the art of realistic narrative nor of mythology per se. It is a symbolic journey or act. It is action on a completely different plane.

Seen this way, I begin to think about this threesome, this triumvirate or trinity and I wonder if we cannot see them as the unconscious aspects of the individual soul. Well, rather than soul, perhaps I can use mind. Freud's tripartite theory of the unconscious mind might well be considered, with the recognition that what is absent here is what is so dominant in Freud, the tieing in of all aspects of human behaviour with sexuality.

So, leaving sex out of it, in some ways can we understand these three characters as reflecting a division somewhat similar to that of Freud's Id, Ego, and Superego?

Gollem in this model might be understood as the Id, that primitive, instinctual mass of urges, desires, aggressions and gratifications. The predominance of animalistic descriptions of Gollem, not just the dog and spider references, but the constant emphasis on his sensory responses, particularly his use of his sense of smell, reflects the most basic of human contacts with the world.

I was at first tempted to see Sam as the Superego and Frodo as the Ego, but then I took a closer look at how they react to each other, to events, and to Gollem in this chapter and I would not be inclined to reverse that. Sam is the character who represents the structured sense of identity and self, constantly referring back to the Gaffer and to Galadriel, his past experience, mixing both deliberate acts of behaviour and sudden impulses. Frodo, particularly with his remembrance of Gandalf's lesson on pity and mercy, reflects the moral agent or Superego. I realise one can argue that Frodo's moral sense is a consciously articulated one, but at the same time I think we can consider him as the character who respresents the moral aspect of the unconscious, particularly in the manner wherebye he accepts the Ring and then agrees to carry it to Mordor without really understanding why.

Of course there are elements of the behaviour of all three characters which do not fit neatly into this structure, but it seems to me that broadly we have these three aspects of the human mind brought into interplay with each other. "Behind" the heroic actions of the other members of the Fellowship lies this primitive or basic aspect of our existence: how we learn to become moral agents. Perhaps only by separating the journey of Sam, Frodo and Gollem from the more social or culture struggles of Aragorn and Co did Tolkien feel he could make symbolic this journey to destroy the Ring.
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Old 03-09-2005, 02:12 PM   #5
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I have wondered about the possibilities of a Freudian interpretation of these three characters. Of course, one could put forward an equally valid Jungian interpretation - Gollum as the Shadow, the complex of repressed & denied aspects of the personality, both positive & negative, Sam as the conscious personality & Frodo as the developing Self & see the whole sequence as an account of the Individuation process...
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Old 03-09-2005, 02:21 PM   #6
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The latter (Jungian individuation interpretation) has been done in a very interesting article. You can find the link on this thread. I find both interpretations of the triumvirate highly fascinating! They are not applicable through and through, of course, but are definitely thought-provoking.
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Old 03-09-2005, 03:09 PM   #7
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Hmm. Interesting how other people feel a let down after leaving the other story line - particularly on my first reading, I experienced a very different reaction. Upon my first reading, I was very much into Frodo (still my favorite character, but I appreciate others more as well now) - after leaving Frodo and Sam at Amon Hen, they were the only two characters I really wanted to know about. Admittedly, I did not get a whole lot out of Book 3 that first reading with the exception of a few notable passages. So eager was I to find out when I was getting on to Frodo that in name-scanning the proceding chapters I accidently found out Gandalf came back... oops. So, anyway, suffice it to say that I was thrilled to reach this chapter.

As for why Tolkien decided to split it up, I will voice a few conjectures. Certainly in doing it this way he built up a great deal of suspense as far as wondering what was happening on the other side. Frodo and Sam are left heading toward Mordor. Then those characters west of Anduin are left off 'at the deep breath before the plunge,' to steal Gandalf's words. Then we leave Frodo and Sam again - and at an even worse spot than before (for me, anyway)! And, once again, we are left wondering just what is happening at the Black Gate. But why for so long? My guess is that because, just as the plots are divided in a literary sense, so also are the plots separate, with the only bridges being Faramir and (sort of) the Mouth of Sauron. Frodo and Sam especially have no idea what is going on with the remainder of the Fellowship. It also helps establish a flow in the two threads (though they are broken off rather abruptly).

Perhaps it could have worked just as well or better, maybe, if he had alternated every few chapters or so. However, I rather like the way he did it, and I think it does establish a real divide between the two sides, just as at the plot level.
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Old 03-02-2005, 07:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encaitare
Gollum seems averted to all sources of light -- the Sun and Moon, the elvish rope, and even the "bright eyes" of the Elves, whom he describes as fierce and terrible. We know that he was imprisoned by the Elves of Mirkwood, but perhaps the light associated with them makes his hatred for them even greater.
This got me wondering...

If Gollum hates lights, up to and including the bright Elven eyes, is it not somewhat ironic that his own eyes shine in the dark?

As for the chapter in general, I often find it a letdown to go back to Frodo and Sam and more mundane, dirty, and less rewarding journey they face after all the light and glory of Edoras, Fangorn, the Battle of Helm's Deep, and the great powers of Orthanc and the Palantir. It generally takes me until the Black Gate or Ithilien to really get into the swing of their quest, consequently leaving me with an under-appreciation for this stage of Frodo's quest.
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Old 03-02-2005, 08:22 PM   #9
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Old 03-03-2005, 04:01 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by davem
This rope seems more than just ‘soft, strong & very, very long’ it seems to have some kind of healing power, but of a spiritual kind. It seems Frodo’s sudden blindness was not physical but ‘psychological’ - one is reminded of the kind of hysterical blindness some of the soldiers on the front in WWI suffered. This rope seems to bring light into the darkness of Frodo’s world.
Now I keep thinking of Sam lowering toilet paper over the edge of the cliff.

Anyway...Frodo's temporary blindness seems to me to have been very much the result of his shock. He was about to tumble to a certain death from the cliff face, and it is as though his body has prepared for this. The rush of fear, followed by the sudden landing could easily have caused this temporary problem. Again Tolkien shows his knowledge of simple medical facts associated with trauma.

What the rope symbolises alongside Light is simple Hope. Here is a defenceles Hobbit stuck on a cliff face with no means of escape and suddenly a rope appears. I often see that Light and Hope go together in LotR, in the Phial, and particularly in the symbolism surrounding Aragorn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encaitare
Gollum seems averted to all sources of light -- the Sun and Moon, the elvish rope, and even the "bright eyes" of the Elves, whom he describes as fierce and terrible. We know that he was imprisoned by the Elves of Mirkwood, but perhaps the light associated with them makes his hatred for them even greater.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formendacil
If Gollum hates lights, up to and including the bright Elven eyes, is it not somewhat ironic that his own eyes shine in the dark?
As with much in Tolkien's work, this can work on many levels I think. Gollum's fear of light could simply be down to his long life spent in the total darkness beneath the Misty Mountains. His eyes seem to have grow larger to compensate, making me think of deep-sea fish and other such creatures; his hearing is certainly sharper, like that of a bat, relying on sonic communication.

Now why would he also hate things associated with Light, such as the rope and lembas? It could be alluding to something evil and dark within him; is this because he is by nature evil? Or is it because the Ring has made him so? He is certainly no ally of Sauron.

Is it that Gollum knows nothing of divinity and goodness? He seems to have led a troubled life and never had the benefit of the 'good' things, so perhaps to him, such a thing as lembas would be wholly unnatural. Of course, his fear of the rope could be down to a simple fear of captivity; he has been captured before, and he would know that to protest strongly of pain might lead to him being released from his bonds.

One thing I found interesting was the animal symbolism used for Gollum in this chapter. At first, when he is independent Gollum, he is like a spider, solitary and predatory. He also has something cat like about him with his large luminous eyes, his stealth and his ability to right himself after a tumble. He lives on his instincts and wits like any solitary creature. Then once he is subdued and is Smeagol, he has indeed been 'tamed' and he becomes like a dog, even behaves like one. So he goes from being a predator to being a servile animal, yet like all dogs, there is still something wild and wolflike hidden beneath his apparently faithful demeanour.
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Old 03-03-2005, 11:36 AM   #11
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Lalwendë said
Quote:
Now why would he also hate things associated with Light, such as the rope and lembas? It could be alluding to something evil and dark within him; is this because he is by nature evil? Or is it because the Ring has made him so?
I'm unsure if there is anything else about Gollum's life before the Ring besides that which is told in LotR, so I don't know if there is something about him I've missed, but a possibility is that Gollum did know something of Light, and that was what made him so averse to it. If he knew Light, if he knew goodness, it could be that the sight of Elven things, the sight of the Sun and Moon, made him see how wretched and without it he was. Perhaps he hated Light because, when there was light, it showed him up, so to speak, and his darkness.

I would not say that Gollum was, by nature, evil. It seems to me, reflecting on the scene where he touched Frodo's knee, that there was at least the possibility of goodness in him. But he had not lived a very good life, despite his capability to be good. He murdered, etc. It could be that Light showed to him clearly what he wasn't and what he could have been, perhaps still could be. The light of the Elves... their beauty, and he was a wretched sort of creature, and so on.

He describes the Elf eyes as 'fierce and terrible.' Generally I imagine Elf eyes as something entirely different. Perhaps the Elf eyes are good and bright, but Gollum, not being that, finds them fierce and terrible? Perhaps because he knows Light and his lack of it, he hates it more than he would otherwise?
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Old 03-03-2005, 11:51 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Nurumaiel
I'm unsure if there is anything else about Gollum's life before the Ring besides that which is told in LotR, so I don't know if there is something about him I've missed, but a possibility is that Gollum did know something of Light, and that was what made him so averse to it.
Of course, we don't know what sort of life Gollum had as innocent Smeagol the fisherman, but we could surely assume it was a quite one, untroubled by dilemmas of good and evil. Some might say Gollum was inherently evil for killing Deagol in order to get the ring. I don't think he was. My take is that the sight of the ring filled him with desire for the thing, and it was due to this that he went on to commit evil. But I agree wholeheartedly that Gollum may have known something of Light in the past, whether he knew it as Light I could not say, but the knowledge and memory of what he had turned away from must have remained within him, and so to be reminded of this would quite literally be painful to him. He has now gone so far that he possibly knows that there is little or no chance of his ever successfully returning to the Light. This is possibly what drives his hatred of Light, his anger, he is downtrodden by the Ring and almost displays a feeling of shame which drives his hurt pride to rail against Light.
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