LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 11 - The Palantír

[davem]

I don't see the Light as being Eru Himself but as proceeding from Him. It is not His manifestation in Arda but rather his 'power' manifesting there. The Light is the Light which the Secret Fire produces. So, I don't have a problem with the Light being visible to the Eruhini, as it is not the Secret Fire itself which would be visible to them, only the 'effect' of it.

This would show that Saruman has misunderstood, or lost touch with, the truth. The Light may be broken, but not the Secret Fire itself. Saruman seems to have conflated the two. Hence, he has 'left the path of Wisdom'. In the same way, Sauron could (mis)use the Light, as could Feanor, because none of them would actually be (mis)using the Secret Fire itself, only the 'effect' it produces...

I know I'm 'qualifying' my earlier statements in saying this. I can only say that Kuruharan's points have forced my to think more deeply about this question, for which I'm grateful. Also I would refer my fellow Downers to my new sig.....

[Formendacil]

I think it is oversimplistic to think of the fires of Orodruin as the Secret Fire. As with most, it would seem apparent that the Secret Fire is not to found in something so mundane as a volcano. (Let's face it, Melkor couldn't find it in the Void, could he?)

And while bringing this up does stray a bit from the topic (ie. the Chapter) at hand, the original question that brought it up comes back to my mind: What was it about Orodruin that made it so dangerous to things like Rings and Palantiri?

In the case of the Ring, the fact that it was the place of its creation would seem to be reason enough. A sort of a full-circle effect. It was made here, so it can be broken here.

But why was Orodruin selected as the place of the Ring's in the first place? Sauron seems to have definitely had a reason. Furthermore, how does it figure in as being destructive to the Palantiri?

So here's my hypothesis:

In Morgoth's Ring, in the part that gave the book it's title, it tells of how Melkor suffused his power into the hroa of Arda, how Arda became his Ring, prefiguring Sauron's later act with the Ring.

In this part, it says that there is a Melkor-element in all the physical matter of Arda, but that it is there in varying degrees. Silver and water are singled out as being almost unstained by the Melkor-element, whereas gold seems to have been much more heavily concentrated with it, hence Sauron's use of gold to create the One Ring.

Perhaps the Melkor-element in Arda is not only stronger in certain elements, but also in certain places. My theory is that Orodruin was home to a very strong concentration of Melkor-element, which made it very destructive (hence the ability to destroy things otherwise close to unbreakable, eg. the Palantiri), as well as logical place for Sauron to seek out. After all, if he deliberately chose gold as the material for the Ring because of its strong Melkor-element, then it surely stands to reason that he would chose to forge it in a place with a strong Melkor-element.

[Kuruharan]

Lalwendë

The only problem with this definition is that if being holy also means being pure and without taint, then many of the Ainur fail, even the 'good'.

I didn't mean that they could not make errors of judgment. However, they are free of evil will. In his superlative creation of the Dwarves, Aule erred in judgment but he did not have an evil will in doing so. (Evil will seems to ultimately boil down to desiring domination for one's self).

That seems tangled to me. Or is it a case of 'God's will'? Even if what is done by God seems wrong or cruel to us?

I think it is considerably less tangled than trying to explain why Sauron was able to harness the Secret Fire...

If so, then there is a message in the creation of and the lust for the Silmarils, almost as if they are 'graven images'

I don't think this is an inappropriate comparison.

davem

I don't see the Light as being Eru Himself but as proceeding from Him. It is not His manifestation in Arda but rather his 'power' manifesting there. The Light is the Light which the Secret Fire produces. So, I don't have a problem with the Light being visible to the Eruhini, as it is not the Secret Fire itself which would be visible to them, only the 'effect' of it.

I believe this is closer to what Tolkien wrote regarding Eru's presence in Arda. I don't entirely agree with it, but it would be difficult to argue against on the basis of Tolkien's writing.

This would show that Saruman has misunderstood, or lost touch with, the truth. The Light may be broken, but not the Secret Fire itself. Saruman seems to have conflated the two. Hence, he has 'left the path of Wisdom'.

I think this could be compelling.

Formendacil

And while bringing this up does stray a bit from the topic (ie. the Chapter) at hand

psssst...we've abandoned the Chapter to fend for itself...

Perhaps the Melkor-element in Arda is not only stronger in certain elements, but also in certain places. My theory is that Orodruin was home to a very strong concentration of Melkor-element, which made it very destructive (hence the ability to destroy things otherwise close to unbreakable, eg. the Palantiri), as well as logical place for Sauron to seek out.

Well, that is an interesting theory...however, Mount Doom may not have existed at the time when Morgoth was rampaging freely about the lands. It was submerged under the Inland Sea of Helcar.

[mark12_30]

But I think I need some Christian input here before I draw any more parallels!

Mind if I give it a shot...?

Strider on Good Versus Ill:

....said Éomer. ‘It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?’

‘As he ever has judged,’ said Aragorn. ‘Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man’s part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.’

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I don't see rendering something holy as being the same thing as making it divine. Holiness to me means making something pure (or something being pure) without any sort of taint whatsoever.

IMO you're on the right track. "Holiness" is to be set apart, to be set aside, to be dedicated, consecrated to a purpose-- the purpose of worship, of being led to the divine. It is not the same thing as the divine.

For example, an Old Testament illustration: the Tablernacle was holy, but it was not divine; God , who indwelt it, is divine.

Everything in the Hebrew Tabernacle was holy-- but the Tabernacle was not in itself divine. It was a place set apart so that God could manifest himself there in the Holy of Holies. In other words the Tabernacle was dedicated to the worship of God, and ONLY the worship of God. You didn't use it for anything else. So it was holy; set apart; dedicated. And (in the course of that process) everything that was going to be used there had to be pure or purified (simply because God said so.) He ordered that the utensils would be made of pure metals, the flours and oils were to be untainted, the incense was of a specified mixture and none other, the priests wore special dedicated linens which they donned on entry and removed on departure, In this way the entire Tabernacle was set apart from common useage and dedicated (always and only) to the worship of God.

Being divine means...being divine. I don't think it is the same thing.

Very true.

The only problem with this definition is that if being holy also means being pure and without taint, then many of the Ainur fail, even the 'good'.

Wrong angle, I think. The point to the Ainur is that they were "set apart" to the service of Eru. They were fallible (else they would be divine.) But they were dedicated. Their mistakes were made with good intent, not in rebellion. Melkor by contrast indulged in rebellion, wanting to usurp Eru's place. Aule was dabbling in sub-creation looking for an outlet for his own fatherly heart. Big difference; and it's all in who you are serving. Aule-- wants to be like more like Master Eru, more fatherly, caring, having children to look after. Melkor-- wants to replace Eru and be his own master.

(Gollum, gleefully waving clenched fist: "Then We be the master!" )

Surely if holiness is allowable where moral/spirtual failures or mistakes have happened, then what we might see as bad traits or behaviours are actually allowable for 'holy' figures? That seems tangled to me.

It's all about allegiance of the heart, both on the large and small scale. "Will you aid me or thwart me? Choose swiftly!" Yet Strider would not dismiss a man who sought to aid him but made a mistake.

Or is it a case of 'God's will'? Even if what is done by God seems wrong or cruel to us?

Oh, here's a can of worms. Maybe this should go to another thread. But it's hard to be a casualty in the grand scheme of things, isn't it? We see Eru's mercy and grace at the Sammath Naur when Gollum participates in the destruction of the Ring, but those who fell during the war never saw that moment, and may have asked "why me?" What about those who fell as the Westfold burned, those who were cut down by orcs as they fled? Doubtless to them their death seemed cruel, wrong, and pointless. Is their death the fault of Eru? Or someone else? Going back further, what about the journey across the Helcaraxe? Some of the travellers, especially women and children, must have been following loved ones, and been essentially disinterested in the oath and the Silmarils. Is Eru at fault for letting them freeze to death?

Maybe it is that anything less than Eru can never be as divine

True

or pure.

Purity of intent, of devotion, of allegiance, is different than perfection of action and behavior. Aragorn made mistakes, but we think of him as pure-hearted. Likewise Sam, Faramir, etc.

And that would include such items as Palantiri. If so, then there is a message in the creation of and the lust for the Silmarils, almost as if they are 'graven images'; and they do, after all, contain the Light within and as such are representations of it.

Yes, I agree with you (and with Kuruharan).

[davem]

I suppose in a way I 've been running with some ideas, not necessarily because I'm committed to them, but because I got caught up in exploring them. I'm not sure we've strayed too far from the events of this chapter, though, because I feel that the Palantiri, in their effect & in their nature (as well as in what is 'fatal' to them) are so similar.

One point I would like to throw in, though, is that the presence of Eru, the clearest manifestation of his power, is seen in the events at the Sammath Naur, where the Fires well up from the heart of the earth, the very place where Eru sent the Secret Fire into Arda....

[Kuruharan]

One point I would like to throw in, though, is that the presence of Eru, the clearest manifestation of his power, is seen in the events at the Sammath Naur, where the Fires well up from the heart of the earth, the very place where Eru sent the Secret Fire into Arda

Uhhh...made manifest by the Secret Fire in the form of eruptions laying waste to the surrounding area?

I find that a bit much to swallow.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Uhhh...made manifest by the Secret Fire in the form of eruptions laying waste to the surrounding area?

Made manifest in the destruction of the Ring. Perhaps Eru allowed Sauron to use the power of the Secret Fire to make the Ring there as the most effective way to bring about his destruction. If Sauron hadn't poured so much of himself into the One he wouldn't have been so vulnerable. Maybe Eru simply decided to give him enough rope to hang himself......