LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 11 - The Palantír

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And speaking of Feanor, I think it's interesting that Gandalf says if he mastered the stone he would... spy on Sauron? no... get instructions from Manwe? no... but that he would view "the unimaginable hand and mind of Feanor at their work". I just love that.

That gets to me too. Feanor made the Silmarils which were so notorious, and in a certain way addictive; if he also made the palantiri then he must have possessed some craft which also made them addictive, or at least, made their properties addictive. It's interesting that Gandalf would reject the One Ring, as he does not desire power, but he seriously considers looking into the palantir as he does desire knowledge. Is this something put here by Tolkien to throw into relief the need to pity Saruman? He must have originally used the palantir to seek knowledge, the same thing Gandalf considers using it for.

I also like to think of what Gandalf says as some kind of yearning for Valinor, for a place he has seen with his own eyes. Maybe in his words we can see that the place is his home, and that we ought not to be sad when he returns there at the end of the story.

[davem]

I've been wondering about Mount Doom in the light of something said in The Palantiri in UT. There its stated that it was believed by the wise that he Palantiri were indestructible by any power that men had - unless they were thrown into the fires of Orodruin, when the heat might cause them to shatter.

So, like the Ring, the Palantiri could only be destroyed in the fires of Mount Doom. My question is, what is it about Orodruin that makes it such a destructive force. It existed before the fall of Numenor certainly as Sauron chose Mordor as his seat of operations & began building Barad dur in 1000 (S.A.). Did he choose Mordor principally because of Orodruin?


Encyclopedia of Arda implies this is the case:

When Sauron chose the land of Mordor as his dwelling-place in the Second Age, Orodruin was the reason for his choice. He 'used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and his forging' (from Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age); the most famous result of his forging, and in fact the only one we know of for sure, was the One Ring, made in about the year II 1600. So powerful was the sorcery used in the making of the Ring that it could not be unmade, except by casting it back into the same fire that had forged it.

But I'm not sure whether this is speculation as they don't give a source for this statement.

Is Orodruin an 'ordinary' volcano, or is it a source of much greater, even 'magical' power? EoA again:

Orodruin was far more than a natural volcano - Sauron seems to have extended his own power into it, and was able to control its fires. It seems to have lain dormant when Sauron was away from Mordor, and sprung into life when his power grew.

This seems more in line with what Morgoth did - suffusing his malice into the stuff of Arda.

Its interesting to speculate on the significance of Tolkien's statement 'He used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and his forging' .

What kind of 'fire' is at the heart of Arda, & is it simply magma? Is it simply extreme heat that destroys the One & could potentially destroy the Palantiri, or is there more to it. Is it the 'Secret Fire'? And if it is, what does that tell us about Sauron's ability to make use of it?

I've also been wondering about whether there's any significance in the locations of the Palantiri - Orthanc-Minas Anor-Osgiliath-Minas Ithil are almost in an east-west line & so are Mithlond-Annuminas-Amon Sul. Is that coincidence, or is there some symbolic (or even some practical ) reason for it? Certainly orientation seems to play a part in the operation of the stones....

[Kuruharan]

What kind of 'fire' is at the heart of Arda, & is it simply magma? Is it simply extreme heat that destroys the One & could potentially destroy the Palantiri, or is there more to it. Is it the 'Secret Fire'? And if it is, what does that tell us about Sauron's ability to make use of it?

While I think the bulk of the discussion about Mount Doom should wait for its own chapter, I think it is safe to say now that it was not the Secret Fire. That is "with" Eru and we know that Eru does not physically appear in Ea.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

While I think the bulk of the discussion about Mount Doom should wait for its own chapter, I think it is safe to say now that it was not the Secret Fire. That is "with" Eru and we know that Eru does not physically appear in Ea.

I wonder how 'safe' it is to say that?

"Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World and it was called Eä." ('Valaquenta')

He 'used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and his forging' ('Of the Rings of Power & the Third Age')

Assuming 'the heart of the world' & 'the heart of the earth' mean the same thing, then I think its entirely possible that the fires of Orodruin are more than just simple volcanic fires. They seem to have a greater power in them than extreme heat...

[Kuruharan]

I wonder how 'safe' it is to say that?

About as safe as this…

there is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World.

There is no “embodiment of the Creator anywhere in this story or mythology.
Letter 181

The One does not inhabit any part of Eä.
Letter 211

Any part of Eä would include inside it.

Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World and it was called Eä.

Here we have a statement that can be interpreted metaphysically, where the above statements can only be interpreted physically.

think its entirely possible that the fires of Orodruin are more than just simple volcanic fires.

I’m not sure about this. It was the only volcano in that region of Middle earth. That in and of itself is enough to make it a unique source of power. That Sauron harnessed and tampered with that power for his own use I have no doubt, but other than that I don’t see a need to make the fires of Mount Doom any more than just that.

[Aiwendil]

Kuruharan:

The quotes you give are surely important; but we also have:

'They say,' answered Andreth: 'they say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end. This they say also, or they feign, is a rumour that has come down through years uncounted, even from the days of our undoing.'

He is already in it, as well as outside,' said Finrod. 'But indeed the "in-dwelling" and the "out-living" are not in the same mode.'

But they speak of Eru Himself entering into Arda, and that is a thing wholly different.

All from the "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" in HoMe X.

So either:

1. Andreth's story of the "Old Hope" is without basis in fact,
2. Tolkien changed his mind at some point, or
3. The statements in Letters are to be taken to refer only to the time of the action of the stories, and there is to be an incarnation of Eru in a later age.

But in any case this has little to do with the question of the Secret Fire and less to do with Mount Doom.

But I think you are right here:

Quote:
Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World and it was called Eä.


Here we have a statement that can be interpreted metaphysically, where the above statements can only be interpreted physically.

I have always thought that the Secret Fire/Flame Imperishable was the part of Eru that embodies creativity (i.e. not just the ability to think of things but the power to make, to generate something out of nothing). Cf. Ainulindale:

'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will.'

' . . . And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be'

I do not, then, see the Secret Fire as a great pool of magma beneath the earth's surface; rather, it seems to be the metaphysical power behind Arda's existence.

It also doesn't feel quite right to say that Sauron was harnessing, especially through such mundane means, the Secret Fire - that which Melkor could never find, and which Gandalf names in opposition to the flame of Udun.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

It also doesn't feel quite right to say that Sauron was harnessing, especially through such mundane means, the Secret Fire - that which Melkor could never find, and which Gandalf names in opposition to the flame of Udun.

This is the hinge, I think.

As far as Eru and Arda-- in Tolkien and the great war scroll down and look for "In letter 192". There's a long discourse about a likely catholic interpretation of Tolkien's own statements regarding whether Eru was "in" Arda or not.