LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman

[Child of the 7th Age]

One of the things Tolkien does so well is setting the stage for the events in the next chapter. Yet he often does it in such a subtle way that the reader is not wholly aware of the importance of his words, or how things will develop later in the tale.

A case in point is the hobbits' conduct and feelings as they sit at the bottom of the steps and listen to the conversation going on 'above' them. Tolkien tells us this:

.... Merry and Pippin sat on the bottom step, feeling both unimportant and unsafe.

"Half a sticky mile from here to the gate!" muttered Pippin. "I wish I could slip off back to the guardroom unnoticed! What did we come for? We are not wanted."

Even before the appearance of the palantir, discontent is beginning to brew inside Pippin. Although both hobbits feel unimportant and unsafe, Pippin is the one who is upset enought to put his feelings into words. Undoubtedly, this discontent stems partially from Pippin's natural Tookish inquisitiveness: his desire to hear and know everything, a trait that will soon get him into definite trouble. But I can't help feeling this isn't just good natured inquisitiveness: there is a touch of shadow at its base, especially in the reference to "We are not wanted".

Nor is it accidental that Tolkien gave these words to Pippin rather than Merry. This scene foreshadows the one in the next chapter where Pippin, already under the influence of the Stone, is bothered by the fact that Merry was the one chosen to ride with Gandalf. His real reason for this, of course, is his desire to pump information out of Gandalf and, even more, to get closer to the Stone.

At the end of this chapter, it is Pippin rather than Merry who goes bounding off to retrieve the ball. And this sets the reader up for the events in the next chapter. Yet I can't help wondering why it was Pippin and not anyone else who ran to retrieve it. Was it Tookish curiosity, pure and simple? Just coincidence? Or is there something "addictive" within the ball that it would actually reach out and touch Pippin's discontented mind even when he was doing nothing more than looking at the Stone from afar?

I may be reading too much in here. The palantiri are not inherently evil objects, like the ruling ring or the other rings that fell under its dominion. Yet it often seems dangerous for a mortal to get near any 'magical' object crafted by Elven hands, whether or not the original intent was ill. From other scenes and references in the Legendarium, the palantiri would seem to exercise a negative or even addictive influence when the Stones are wielded by those who are not their rightful owners. This seems especially the case when the user is already discontent and unhappy, the chief example being Denethor. And it is clear from the earlier scene in the chapter that Pippin was already feeling discontent. So was it mere chance, Tookish curiosity, or something more that set Pippin racing after that crazy ball?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Child

Yet it often seems dangerous for a mortal to get near any 'magical' object crafted by Elven hands, whether or not the original intent was ill. From other scenes and references in the Legendarium, the palantiri would seem to exercise a negative or even addictive influence when the Stones are wielded by those who are not their rightful owners. This seems especially the case when the user is already discontent and unhappy

I've wondered about this in the past. Of course, there is the simple (simplistic?) explanation that Tolkien was a devout Christian & would have a very low opinion of anything that smacked of the 'occult', & was simply warning his readers not to 'dabble' in the Black Arts.

But I wonder if it is so simple. Perhaps its more a question of 'right'. Only certain individuals hava a 'right' to use 'magical' implements. Certainly we have Aragorn's warning in reference to Anduril:'Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.' The question arises as to whether Saruman himself had a 'right' to use the Palantir. I wonder whether there is more to this issue of 'right' - what constitued such a 'right' & how was it conferrred & by whom? Was there some kind of ceremony or investiture, or at least a 'training course'? Or are we back to the thorny issue of bloodlines.

Whether the barrow swords come into this is another question. They were given to the hobbits by Tom & were clearly 'magical', being 'woven about by spells'. It is interesting that all four hobbits carry 'magic' swords & seem not to come to harm as a result - in Merry's case the very opposite. Did Tom 'confer' the blades on the hobbits in some way? Perhaps his defeat of the Barrow Wight gave him some kind of 'authority' over the contents of the Barrow. Which gets me thinking about the way they aquire them in the movie - invested with arms by the last decendant of the Kings of Arnor...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

With these words, Saruman exerted such a great effort for it was no mere Man he was tempting. With his offer of friendship and counsel comes the choice for Gandalf to forsake his task the way Saruman did. It came as a surprise to the Men around, even to Theoden, that Gandalf declined.

When Saruman speaks to Gandalf he does seem to have to exert more effort into it. Perhaps this hints again at the use of osanwe and that Gandalf would be all too well aware of the need to exercise unwill, to close his mind to these words. In his final struggle with Gandalf he seems to put all his might into his words:

So great was the power that Saruman exerted in this last effort that none that stood within hearing were unmoved. But now the spell was wholly different. They heard the gentle remonstrance of a kindly king with an erring but much-loved minister. But they were shut out, listening at a door to words not meant for them: ill-mannered children or stupid servants overhearing the elusive discourse of their elders, and wondering how it would affect their lot. Of loftier mould these two were made: reverend and wise. It was inevitable that they should make alliance. Gandalf would ascend into the tower, to discuss deep things beyond their comprehension in the high chambers of Orthanc. The door would be closed, and they would be left outside, dismissed to await allotted work or punishment. Even in the mind of Theoden the thought took shape, like a shadow of doubt: "He will betray us; he will go--we shall be lost."

Then Gandalf laughed. The fantasy vanished like a puff of smoke.

In this instance everyone listening is held under the control of what Saruman says, to the extent that they cannot really hear or understand his words. It makes me think that if you were to hear this yourself it might even seem as if Saruman were speaking in another tongue. I like the image that Tolkien uses here, of being shut out on the other side of a door. Those listening feel as though they are eavesdropping and such an endeavour rarely brings the listener the full story, just as happened to Sam when he was eavesdroping on Frodo and Gandalf at Bag End. The listeners cannot comprehend what is said so a 'shadow of doubt' forms in their minds and would possibly remain had Gandalf not broken the spell.

Originally Posted by Child

The palantiri are not inherently evil objects, like the ruling ring or the other rings that fell under its dominion. Yet it often seems dangerous for a mortal to get near any 'magical' object crafted by Elven hands, whether or not the original intent was ill.

Originally Posted by davem

Perhaps its more a question of 'right'. Only certain individuals hava a 'right' to use 'magical' implements. Certainly we have Aragorn's warning in reference to Anduril:'Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.' The question arises as to whether Saruman himself had a 'right' to use the Palantir. I wonder whether there is more to this issue of 'right' - what constitued such a 'right' & how was it conferrred & by whom?

I think that the answer could lie in intent. The only object portrayed as inherently dangerous is the One Ring, and possibly the Nine to Men yet presumably not to other races. Other objects are not obviously inherently evil, they just seem to have been used for evil intent, or even simply the wrong intent, as with Pippin and the palantir. Tolkien may be saying that to dabble with things without a clear mind and a clear purpose would and could be dangerous, but I don't think he is saying that every such object is inherently evil.

The interesting thing here is how would anyone know what was and what was not evil? And if it was not evil then how would anyone know how to use an object correctly? If you saw a gold ring in a cave you would never suspect it as evil, just as if you might not think there was anything wrong with playing with Anduril if you saw it propped against a wall outside Meduseld.

The palantiri were not made with evil intent, so I would say that to use them with evil intent would be to turn their very nature on its head and risk evil coming from their use. To use them with goodness of heart, which Pippin was not doing, should mean that they would react and respond in the correct manner. If the weapons found in the Barrow were made with the intention of doing great or good deeds, then to use them in this way should also protect the bearer from any possibility of being harmed by their 'magic'.

[A_Brandybuck]

I would not push the guilt to the Palantír, that he attracts Pippin in such a heavy way. The Palantír is indeed a magical thing, but there is nowhere (I hope) an evidence, that he attracts other character in that heavy way. Only using it can have some changings of the psyche of the user.
Rather would I search the guilt by Pippin himself. He is very predestinated from the character for such a deed. Of all Hobbits he seems to be the youngest from character and does many things very imprudently. One event, which is very similar to the Palantír-event, is the story with the stone and the well in Moria.

Originally Posted by FOTR

Pippin felt curiously attracted by the well. While the others were unrolling blankets and making beds against the walls of the chamber, as far as possible from the hole in the floor, he crept to the edge and peered over. A chill air seemed to strike his face, rising from invisible depths. Moved by a sudden impulse he groped for a loose stone, and let it drop. He felt his heart beat many times before there was any sound. Then far below, as if the stone had fallen into deep water in some cavernous place, there came a plunk, very distant, but magnified and repeated in the hollow shaft.

Pippin is here also very attracted by this "mysterious" hole in the ground. He must fathom it out, In this special case, he must throw a stone into it, to explore how deep the hole goes and where the air came. Moved air in Moria? Really weird!
Pippin seems to be really vulnerable to those mysterious things. That fit also his character and way of life very well.
In the case of the Palantír, it must be similar. A mysterious Stone, what could that be? Just have a short look upon it.

A good reason for Gandalf for trying to bring Saruman back on the right way, could be, that Gandalf knows of the circumstances, which have brought Saruman on the wrong way. At the beginning none is evil and Gandalf (Olorin) as an Ainu must know that (if he hadn't forget it in his body).
Gandalf mentioned that Saruman was not always evil, he came as a good one (proud, but good). And he knows surely, how the embodying of an Ainu trouble the psyche. Tolkien said in one of his letters (shame on me, I can't find it), that the Istari had to suffer not only the suffers of the body, but have to suffer also in that way, that every Istar is in danger, that he will get stiffened by one goal or strategy how longer he is embodied. The Istar will try everything that he is right in his strategy.
The could be a reason of Sarumans refusing attitude. But it could also be the reason, why Gandalf tried to persuade Saruman, because he knows, that it is not Saruman's full failure.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The very last paragraph of this chapter struck me today. Treebeard pledges the Ents to watch over Isengard and Saruman. What he says is not an oath, so he could not be accused of oathbreaking later on, but it does sound like a promise, doesn't it?

Until seven times the years in which he tormented us have passed, we shall not tire of watching him.

That sounds like a very long time; however, Treebeard released Saruman a relatively short time later, a matter of weeks or months. Was Saruman's voice so powerful that an Ent broke his promise? That is a grave matter indeed!

[davem]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

The very last paragraph of this chapter struck me today. Treebeard pledges the Ents to watch over Isengard and Saruman. What he says is not an oath, so he could not be accused of oathbreaking later on, but it does sound like a promise, doesn't it? That sounds like a very long time; however, Treebeard released Saruman a relatively short time later, a matter of weeks or months. Was Saruman's voice so powerful that an Ent broke his promise? That is a grave matter indeed!

Well, technically, he didn't promise not to release Saruman, he just said the Ents wouldn't get tired of watching over him any time soon. From what's said later he didn't release Saruman because he got tired of watching him, but because he couldn't stand to see him caged. Besides, Treebeard is responding to Gandalf's statement that Saruman must not be allowed to escape - which he doesn't.....

[Estelyn Telcontar]

...sounds like loyer's talk, davem...