Gandalf's Staff

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I'm not commenting on an Ú-JLA, snorri.

Seriously: the Dragon, yes, would have allied with Sauron. But the Balrog most probably wouldn't. It's more loyal to Morgoth, and Sauron abandoned Morgoth after his defeat at Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

He's probably napping so when he comes to serve Sauron his dishonourable discharge, he'll be ready for anything, like Sauron's patented avoid-the-mailman manoeuvre.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

Seriously: the Dragon, yes, would have allied with Sauron. But the Balrog most probably wouldn't. It's more loyal to Morgoth, and Sauron abandoned Morgoth after his defeat at Tol-in-Gaurhoth.

But Sauron's was the only gig in town, and he was able to turn Numenoreans, Maia etc to the dark side, so why not some sweet words for the Balrog ("I'll make those darned wings really work. Here, put this ring on...")

And if Sauron were to recover the One, would he then be able to control the Balrog? If so, wouldn't it have been better for the Balrog to be on the bandwagon a bit sooner, like Saruman?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

The Balrog knows where his loyalties lie. And it's not in that upstart Gorthaur.

And if Sauron were to recover the One, would he then be able to control the Balrog? If so, wouldn't it have been better for the Balrog to be on the bandwagon a bit sooner, like Saruman? (alatar)

Curumo was a different case; he was "confused" by his incarnation. The Balrog was in his proper senses, and is almost equal to Gorthaur.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

The Balrog knows where his loyalties lie. And it's not in that upstart Gorthaur.

Curumo was a different case; he was "confused" by his incarnation. The Balrog was in his proper senses, and is almost equal to Gorthaur.

So, to bring this all back around, the reason that the Balrog chased Gandalf to the Bridge is that he wanted to commit suicide. The writing was on the wall - either to listen to Wolfboy the Cruel crow about how he 'won' for eternity or to enter the Fourth age as the last Maia standing in ME - heck, even the Firstborn were leaving the place as it was getting to be so tame.

I would disagree regarding Gorthaur being an upstart as I thought he ran the show while Melkor lie in chains. This should have had some impression on the Balrog - the Boss picked him only to 'go fetch those Elfs' or 'cover my retreat,' never to run the store.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I would disagree regarding Gorthaur being an upstart as I thought he ran the show while Melkor lie in chains. This should have had some impression on the Balrog - the Boss picked him only to 'go fetch those Elfs' or 'cover my retreat,' never to run the store. (alatar)

He was Morgoth's duly appointed lieutenant then. But not during the Second or Third Age.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

He was Morgoth's duly appointed lieutenant then. But not during the Second or Third Age.

Agreed, but in ME, who has a better resume/bona fides?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Well, yes, Sauron, is the greatest evil being after the passing of Morgoth, but the Balrog didn't sign a contract to serve Sauron in case of Morgoth's sudden disappearance.

They could perhaps have an alliance of equals, but not Master and Servant.

[Essex]

alatar (and Kuruharan)

If not, how do you reconcile his actions at the Crack (claiming and not actively destroying the Ring) and not having 'failed?'

Ok, let's say it again. (have a search for a post called something like frodo at the sammath naur for one of the many discussions)

Q. What was Frodo and the fellowship's Quest?
A. To destroy the Ring.

Q. Was the Ring destroyed?
A. Yes

Q. Was Frodo tempted to keep the Ring
A. Yes, at the very last moment he could not throw the Ring in the fire.

Q. Does it matter that Frodo himself did not throw the Ring in the fire?
A. No.

Q. Was it Redemption for his kindness towards Gollum that helped him complete the Quest?
A. Yes

This is the WHOLE POINT of the story. Middle-earth's Redemption because of one small hobbits kind and noble actions towards a creature who in some circumstances deserved a lot worse.

If Frodo had had Gollum killed, then he would have Failed, as Sauron would have no doubt won his Ring back. But because of his wisdom and kindness, the whole of Middle-earth was saved and the Quest was a success.

Let me hammer the point home again. Did the Quest succeed? The answer is a certain YES. Was Frodo tempted at the Sammath Naur? Of course, but through his actions the Ring was destroyed.

Victory to Frodo.