Gandalf's Staff

[The Saucepan Man]

Legally, Balrog was in the right ...

True enough, although he was entitled only to use reasonable force to defend his property, under English law at least.

I think that the shadow and flame, not to mention the flaming sword and whip, may have been a little over the top.

[Kuruharan]

Perhaps by the fact that they were running at break-neck speed towards the exit.

At the time they were running at break-neck speed for the exit he was hot on their tail (literally). He would have expected such behavior. When he set up his ambush they had been in the Twenty-first Hall and the Chamber of Mazarbul for several hours, which is where the dwarves had set up shop. He probably didn't want them gettin' ideas.

But the Ring was fast running out of options and on a one-way trip to doom

Actually, as the journey progressed its options were getting better and better with every step. You must take into account that Frodo himself failed in the end.

I suppose it still had the Boromir gambit up its (metaphorical) sleeve...but then its other options were pretty risky too.

(Lets see if we can't drag Boromir88 into the thread.)

Nah. As far as the Ring was concerned Boromir was a chump. He would have been putty in the Ring's (metaphorical) hands.

dwarves themselves were guilty of selfsame 'breaking and trespassing' in the first place, as they dug into Balrog's original habitat in the lower halls without any legal ground whatsoever.

Tut, tut councilor. That was not the Balrog's original habitat. The Balrog was trespassing without permission under other people's property (dwarven jurisprudence always draws property lines in a 360 degree circle in all directions around the center ).

Unless the Dwarves could tunnel into the Timeless Halls in search of mithril, they could not reach the Balrog's original habitat.

[alatar]

To bring the thread back to theme, I just want to note that Gandalf had to break his staff in order to counter the Balrog's 'preserve bridge' spell. Now that I've satisfied the legal requirement of staying on topic, here we go right back off.

In regards to my comment about the Balrog being 'called in,' a better explanation would be that it's noted somewhere in the books (is Gandalf telling this to Frodo?) that Sauron put out the call to all evil things and that's how Gollum (being even more susceptible) ends up in Mordor. I would then assume that the Balrog, being evil, at least got some kind of message, greeting card, etc, and so it knew that Sauron was back in business and was hiring. It would be complete speculation whether the Balrog submitted a resume or not ("...it says here that you worked for Morgoth before the First Age through the War of Wrath, are currently unemployed, good with a whip, know Words of Command..."). Also note that the Balrog's lack of verifiable employment kept him from obtaining a mortgage for Moria, which it had intended to buy and turn into a theme park.

Somewhere else it's noted that if Smaug were still alive that Sauron would have used him in his multi-pronged attack/war. Luckily Gandalf met a Dwarf by the side of the road or something, and so put the kabosh on that. But it must be noted that Smaug would have been controlled by, or at least a willing partner in Sauron's plan. And Smaug just seems much smarter that the Balrog - is there even 'one' Balrog quote in all of Tolkien's works ("If I really had wings I'd fly up there and smite thee, Thorondor.")? And Dol Guldur is much closer to Moria than it is to Erebor, meaning cheaper postal rates.

Now to add 2+2 to get 22. Smaug and the Balrog are both 'fire' creatures. Both are evil, have seen (and/or smelled) a Baggins, prefer to take very long naps underground in former Dwarven abodes (especially after having had less than amicable encounters with the same) in which mithril is present in some form, meet their demise through some action of the Grey Pilgrim, have wings...er, um, anyway...

With this many identical characteristics, I would then argue that if Smaug were to be a 'Friend of Sauron,' then surely the Balrog was. Saruman, who we all agree does not have wings, was a FoS, and the closest that he came to being a fire creature was in the use of pipeweed.

I rest my case before it becomes too ridiculous...too late.

[Snorri Swifthammer]

Alatar, so what you are saying is that Sauron was forming his very own Legion of Doom to counter the Fellowship's JLA.

So Sauron=Lex Luthor
Balrog = Bizarro
Smaug would have been Riddler?
Saruman as Scarecrow
A corrupted Radagast as Cheetah
May he even could have pulled out a corrupted Alatar and Pallando to form some twisted WonderTwins knock-off ("Twin Wizards Powers Activate! Form of some Crappy wizards!!!")

See now you don't seem so ridiculous

[Kuruharan]

the Balrog, being evil, at least got some kind of message, greeting card

Well, he allowed the orcs to stay for 539 years without eating...all of them.

However, it is very curious that he did not seem to take part in the destruction of Balin's colony, or at least he is not mentioned.

Probably all the thrashing about woke him up and he could not quite drift back to sleep (having rocks plopped on your head might have that effect). That might explain why he took such a personal hand in trying to rid himself of the Fellowship. He wanted some peace and quiet. It seems to take Balrogs a long time to settle down and fall asleep (about 20 years or so, you have to get the rocks underneath you just right).

Note how the orcs fell perfectly silent when the Balrog entered. He had made it painfully evident to them what he wanted.

So why bother carrying on the chase?

To make sure they actually went, of course.

I doubt that he would hold too much fear for Sauron (of whom Gandalf was only the equal at full power), even with the Ring.

Yes, but if Gandalf could master the Ring in man's clothing, surely the Balrog could master the Ring in...balrog's clothing.

(Here they come, I can see them now. Someone's going to mention them. The Twin Terrors of Balrog wings and Balrog size. It was inevitable.)

Whoever gave the Dwarves the right of occupation?

Mahal, who made the mountains before the Dawn of Time. As clear a claim of ownership as I've ever seen.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Mahal, who made the mountains before the Dawn of Time. As clear a claim of ownership as I've ever seen.

I must have missed the bit where he served eviction notices on Smaug, Shelob, the eponymous Balrog and assorted Orcish colonies.

Or ... are you saying that the Dwarves were Aule's eviction notices?

[Essex]

another twist, I know, but seeing as I resurrected this thread I'm gonna give it a go.

Kuruharan

You must take into account that Frodo himself failed in the end.

I always get angry when someone says this. I know there are countless threads on this, but I can't let it stand.

Q1. What was the Quest?
A1. To defeat Sauron by destroying the Ring.

Q2. Was the Ring destroyed?
A2. Yes

Q3. Was the Quest a success?
A3. Yes

Q4. Did Frodo, by his compassion for keeping Gollum alive, receive Redemption?
A4. Yes

Q5. Does it matter that Frodo did not actually throw the Ring in the Lava?
A5. No

Q6. Did Frodo Fail in the Quest to destroy the Ring
A6. No.


...


Sound of second can of worms opening on this thread.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

When he set up his ambush they had been in the Twenty-first Hall and the Chamber of Mazarbul for several hours, which is where the dwarves had set up shop. He probably didn't want them gettin' ideas.

Given their weak-kneed reaction (Ai! Ai! It's a Balrog. Mummy, I'm scared) when he did appear, he could probably rest assured knowing that any ideas that they might (hypothetically) have had would go straight out of the window with his arrival, and that they would just keep on running. So why bother carrying on the chase? Perhaps he wanted to hold the door open for them.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Actually, as the journey progressed its options were getting better and better with every step.

None of its options (with the exception of that clod, Boromir) were much, if at all, better than taking its chances with the Balrog. Fearsome though he was, he was defeated by a Maiar in man's clothing. And Balrogs in the first Age were defeated by Elves. Exemplary specimens of their race though they were, they were no Maiar. I doubt that he would hold too much fear for Sauron (of whom Gandalf was only the equal at full power), even with the Ring.

The Balrog was trespassing without permission under other people's property ...

Whoever gave the Dwarves the right of occupation? I don't recall mention of any Title Deeds ...

And who said that Dwarvish law is applicable? Balrogian legislation provides that possession is 100% of the law.