Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

Seems like Denethor thinks the WK is Gandalf's match, and Gandalf doesn't argue!

Apologies for not having my book, but if Essex would be so kind as to continue the quote, one would see (IMO) that Gandalf was being polite to Denethor, as Gandalf knows that Denethor is losing his mind. Doesn't Gandalf continue saying something like 'mayhap is, mayhap ain't' (or was that Mother Abigail? ) in regards to being overmatched by the Witch-King?

And why should we 'trust' Denethor's opinion anyway? His city is under seige, yet what is he doing? Is he acting like the wise and shrewd leader that we know that he was formerly, or is he succumbing to despair? Does he fight the noble fight like Theoden, ala 'the Charge of the Light Brigade' or is he planning on taking the easy way out by killing himself and his son, forsaking honor, office and responsibilities?

Gandalf returns, not because he was overmatched, but because he wanted to save the wounded that still had a chance. If logic (and my memory) holds, if Gandalf returned because he was overmatched yet Faramir remained behind on the field, then a Steward's son (yes, of Numenorean blood) is the Witch-King's match yet a Maia is not.

It just gets so confusing, but would make a great card game ("My Steward's son trumps your Witch-King..." ).

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by alatar

It just gets so confusing, but would make a great card game ("My Steward's son trumps your Witch-King..." ).

I take it that you haven't seen the Return of the King Top Trumps deck, then?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I take it that you haven't seen the Return of the King Top Trumps deck, then?

You mean that people would make card games regarding this stuff? Amazing! Next thing, they'll start making video games...

Note that EA Games ROTK, while providing yet another version of the movie, is killing me - where's Pong when I need it?

[Essex]

Alatar, where are you stuck on the EA ROTK game? At least I might be able to help you out on that....... (I admit the Black gate can be a pain, is that where you're stuck?)

[Essex]

ah, so it's ok for posters to speculate on the strengths of certain characters from their knowledge of Middle-earth (which is no doubt impressive), but when I actually take evidence from LOTR itself, it's not good enough?

Apologies for not having my book, but if Essex would be so kind as to continue the quote, one would see (IMO) that Gandalf was being polite to Denethor, as Gandalf knows that Denethor is losing his mind. Doesn't Gandalf continue saying something like 'mayhap is, mayhap ain't' (or was that Mother Abigail? ) in regards to being overmatched by the Witch-King?

Nope, I continue the quote here:

'But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him. However that may be, the Captain of Despair does not press forward, yet. He rules rather according to the wisdom that you have just spoken, from the rear, driving his slaves in madness on before.

Gandalf returns, not because he was overmatched, but because he wanted to save the wounded that still had a chance.

That is correct.

Nay, I came rather to guard the hurt men that can yet be healed; for the Rammas is breached far and wide, and soon the host of Morgul will enter in at many points. And I came chiefly to say this. Soon there will be battle on the fields

I am not saying Gandalf has done a runner from the WK, I am merely pointing out a discussion between two wise men on the strengths of the WK v Gandalf, which is pertinent to this thread.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

ah, so it's ok for posters to speculate on the strengths of certain characters from their knowledge of Middle-earth (which is no doubt impressive), but when I actually take evidence from LOTR itself, it's not good enough?

But of course not! Surely you don't think that I'm going to allow evidence to get in the way of my vaunted opinion? And just when are Books going to edited to catch up with my reality, that's what I want to know!?!

Again apologies as I want to reference the evidence (Essex, you wouldn't want to post the entire LOTR, would you? ), but as I can't, my arguments are more thin than I desire and y'all deserve.

Anyway, in regards to the wise men's conversation: When Denethor accuses Gandalf of being overmatched, this is not a statement based on data but just a taunt/insult as the WK and Gandalf the White have not yet met - as Denethor may well know. So this (to me) would not support either case.

Thanks Essex. Regarding EA ROTK, I'm too embarassed to say. My main problems are lack of time and finger agility. I've read a bunch of walkthroughs but they haven't helped as I 'know' what to do but just can't get there. Cheats codes (just so I could see every level and all of the movies) are available as soon as I finish the game, so they're no help.

[St. Povis]

Right.

I can believe that there are fans of the Witch King, I can even believe that a servant of the {speculated to be} strongest of the Maiar, who was in turn the servant of the strongest Valar, might give Gandalf a run for his money, I just don't have it in me to see that the Witch King would walk out victorious, or even corporeal.

As for Denethor...I mean, come on. He was a power hungry lunatic who {seemingly} resented the return of the true heir and was under tremendous stress for any number of reasons. If not common sense, then common decency would point out that he was just trying to jibe the Gandalf. Egotistical rulers have a tendency to do that. Watch Judge Judy shoot her big fat mouth off at people sometimes. Damned if she doesn;t think she is God behid that bench. (Probably one of the reasons the old hag couldn't hack the real justice system. Still, after dealing with the day to day BS of people's idiotic squabbles, and having to balance your life and sense of human decency with the law, its understandable that she can be such a wench.) As it seems to me, more than a handful of kings from the realm of men would have felt happier without the name of Gandalf whispering in their ears, and there's no doubt that Denethor was one of them. I'm almost positive that if Gandalf were lying dead on the field, Denethor would have done a victory dance, and propbably tinkled on the corpse. (Before a bolt of lightning hit him from above, of course).

Surely, I have no answers. Surely I have a healthy dose of favoritism for Gandalf and a bit of distaste for people like Denethor. Surely, I have been raised on Good vs Evil=Good will always win. I guess the best way to do find out what's what would be to exhume the author's corpse and summon in a few necromancers to ask him what's what...Of course, then you;d have to deal with the necromancers personal agendas, and there'd probably be a lot of conflicting stories as to what was actually said, followed by the inevitable specualtion regarding sematics and othersuch.

Bah! If you ask me, there's just no way that the Witch King would triumph. None, nada, no way, no how, unless he was directly aided by Sauron or Morgoth, which, of course, can not be confirmed or denied. Peter Jackson! You have forsaken me!!!!!!!!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by St. Povis

As for Denethor...I mean, come on. He was a power hungry lunatic who {seemingly} resented the return of the true heir and was under tremendous stress for any number of reasons. If not common sense, then common decency would point out that he was just trying to jibe the Gandalf.

From Denethor's POV, Gandalf shows up with some little short guy just after Boromir is found to be dead. Gandalf and Pippin are alive, but Denethor's beloved son is whale food. As far as Denethor may know, Gandalf used Boromir then threw him away when he wasn't part of Gandalf's plan anymore.

Now Gandalf seeks to 'save' Gondor because he has some scheme with Isildur's apparent heir, and so may 'Boromir' Denethor. Plus these two have a big disagreement regarding the Ring's use; Gandalf sends it off to the Nameless One's Magic Mountain via more short guys whereas Denethor would have kept it around for safe-keeping. Note that not all at the Council of Elrond thought that the Frodo option was a great idea.

Denethor, having a bad year, sees Gandalf not on the front line with Faramir (just what is a White Wizard good for anyway?) but in front of him giving him the Witch-King 411 as if Denethor were just some rag tag. So one might expect Denethor to be a bit discourteous.

Originally Posted by St. Povis

Surely I have a healthy dose of favoritism for Gandalf and a bit of distaste for people like Denethor.

Really?!? I didn't notice... You might have noticed that I'm a big fan myself, and so see all things through 'grey-colored' glasses.

Originally Posted by St. Povis

Surely, I have been raised on Good vs Evil=Good will always win.

Not to get too philosophical, but in the short run Good can and does lose in Tolkien's world. Gandalf 'loses' on the Bridge, etc. Can't remember where it is exactly but I think that Tolkien has a character say something like, 'I can turn even Evil into Good not intended' or something - the whole quote by Iluvatar is a bit long and aren't I off topic enough already?

Anyway, Gandalf could have lost (in theory) to the Witch-King if in so doing he helped another character 'grow' (i.e. he could have taken the Ring to Mount Doom himself, but the 'plan' was to inspire the free peoples of ME to kick in.)

[Snorri Swifthammer]

Originally Posted by alatar

Gandalf and Pippin are alive, but Denethor's beloved son is whale food.

Most whales don't eat meat...

Originally Posted by alatar

Not to get too philosophical, but in the short run Good can and does lose in Tolkien's world.

I'd agrue that good loses alot in Middle Earth.

I mean the whole thing starts with Melkor marring the song.

Then after things are set up nice, Melkor takes the elves and corrupts them. He destroys the lamps and then after the Valar set up the nice little trees, Melkor craps all over them with a spider and takes the elves shiny gems.

Elves come over and in a long process more or less lose the War of the Simirals until the Valar finally take pity on them. Gondolin (sp?) one of the brightest cities falls during the war.

Then after all that when finally Melkor is locked up and things look better, Sauron comes along and gets the nice, friendly humans to try and challenge the throne of the Valar and they are destroyed.

We then end up in the Third Age where the most powerful magic items have been corrupted by Sauron and the nine strongest human kings are all Saurons gophers.

Only in the end, on a longshot, does good finally triumph and that only happens because some uppity twisted hobbit doesn't realize he is standing on a ledge over a big pool of lava.

Overall, I think Middle Earth is the story of Good scrapping by despite the fact that the odds are stacked against them.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer

Most whales don't eat meat...

It's well known that ME whales, precursors to the modern Orcas, were on the Atkin's diet during the end of the Third Age.

Originally Posted by Snorri Swifthammer

I'd agrue that good loses alot in Middle Earth.

Overall, I think Middle Earth is the story of Good scrapping by despite the fact that the odds are stacked against them.

True - it's the long defeat leading up to the final battle where all is set aright; however, it's the good done along the way in spite of a stacked deck which is the cool thing. Gandalf was sent to inspire the MEers not to become like the Witch-King - succumbing to temptation, desiring power, riches, servants, slaves, etc yet remaining unsated and empty.

Gandalf sacrifices himself (the many journeys, the Bridge, hanging out with ragtag, etc) for the benefit of others. The W-K (in a cool scene left out of the movies) rides uncaring over both slave and foe alike. Gandalf would give you a choice whereas the Witch-King's choice was to submit or die.

Anyway, to get back to the thread (somewhat), I would like to see the scene from the book where Gandalf faces the W-K at the gate. After the W-K says his lines, I would love to hear Gandalf say, "Come get some..."