Ruin of Doriath - Final Part

[Findegil]

First some remarks on the later geography: I do not think that the drawing of the road is so much in error that the Ford over Duin Daer would be directly north the confluence. As the reason for that I can only put forward the story of the Folk of Haleth. But I must admiss that only a small distance is needed to provide enough space for a stockard. On the other hand, if we take the map in such a liberal way than a Ford over Ascar in the foothills of the mountians is even more possible.

Let me add a further remark on the changed geography: In the Maeglin chapter we get the follwing passage:

From Elmoth to Gelion the land was, north of the Andram and the Falls below the last Ford over Gelion (8)(just above the inflow of the River Ascar from the Mountains), mostly rolling plain, with large regions of big trees without thickets. There were several beaten tracks made originally by Dwarves from Belegost and Nogrod, the best (most used and widest) being from the Little Ford past the north of Elmoth and to the Ford of Aros, it crossed the Bridge of Esgalduin but went no further for, if the Dwarves wished to visit Menegroth

This text then becomes altogether illegible. ...

Note (8) reads: The Falls in Gelion below Sarn Athrad have not been referred to before, and indeed in QS Chapter 9 Of BEleriand and its Realms (V.262-3, §113; The Silmarillion p.122) their existence is denied: 'Gelion had neither fall nor rapids throughout his course'.

That means that geography had realy changed. We do not known, if the "discovery" of the Falls in the course of Gelion, where the reason for the new placeing of the Ford (some way north of the confluence instad of directly south of it). But I think that this at least possible if not likely.
For me, this does also cast some doubt on the discription of the Ford in TN. But I have not enough knowledge about this part of hydro-geography to come up with an argument for my doubts.


Now to the slip of the pen: I will try to add some arguments against that. In my last post I did make my reasons rejecting that idea not very clear.
AB2 makes not clear over which river the Ford Sarn Athrad lead, but the gold is cast into the river Ascar which than renamed Rathloriel. The temporary scripts make clear that Sarn Athrad was over Gelion and the Elves activley cast the gold in the river Ascar. All 4 version of TY are clearly reformulated. In A the only name given is the new name for the river Rathloriel, but it is at this river were the battle ocourse. In TY B the ford is named Sarn Athrad and led over Rathloriel. In C and in D the Ford is over Ascar and the Dwarves cast the gold them self into that river and that river is renamed to Rathloriel.

I would agree to a possible slip of the pen in the very short version TY A, but if that is the case then the following versions worked on these failure (if a failure it was) in a kind development that I can not lock at as unconsicous. Thus if a slip of the pen it was in A, it is no longer in TY C and D at least.

That is what I can put forward in the Moment. It might be good if you would give your reason for suspecting that all the versions of TY were a case of repeated slip of the pen.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

I will try and make my point again.

First, we have in the Quenta that for a brief time, the place where the battle took place and where the treasure was drowned was the same River. (Ascar)
Then, there is a change in which the battle took place in the ford over the River Gelion but it was drowned in the River Ascar.

Now in the Tale of Years, as Findegil has posted, in version B,C and D the battle takes place in the fords over the River Ascar, but the ones who slay the dwarves are not Beren and Co. but rather Celegorm and Curufin. Now, if we are going to use the Tale of Years alternative that the fight was over the ford of the River Ascar, we should take also the fact that it was Celegorm and Curufin who were involved in the fight and not Beren and Co. Can we justify using half a sentence from there but not the other part? Doesn't that make dubious that alteration?

[Aiwendil]

I think I have stumbled upon a further complication.

TY B has the curious:

Celegorm and Curufin destroy the Dwarf-host at Sarn-athrad in Rath-loriel

If this is to be believed, then at this stage we have not the story that is being proposed for our use; rather, the battle remains at Sarn-athrad, but Sarn-athrad becomes a ford over Rath-loriel/Ascar.

In C and D the battle is at "the fords of Ascar". It is not made clear whether the ford described is Sarn-athrad or not.

But by the late work on "Maeglin", Sarn Athrad (which there becomes Harathrad and then Athrad Daer) is again over Gelion.

I had not before observed that in B it is not only the position of the battle that changes but in fact the position of Sarn Athrad - and that this change was certainly temporary, as seen in "Maeglin".

This raises for me the question of whether TY C and D in fact represent a change from B or not. If not, then they refer to Ascar not because, as we have supposed, there is now another ford over that river, at which the battle now takes place, but rather because at this stage Sarn Athrad was a ford over Ascar, not Gelion, and the battle remained at Sarn Athrad. Alternatively, one could suppose that C represents a further stage of development from B, with the name "Sarn Athrad" transferred back to the ford over Gelion but the battle kept at the (now unnamed) ford over Ascar. Or one could suppose that Ascar in all these TY versions is a mistake (which I still think is a possibility, though I admit it may be unlikely).

Suppose we discount the possibility that it is a mistake. We are left with the two possibilities:

1. The story underlying TY C is the same as that in B: Sarn-athrad is now a ford over Ascar.

2. The story has changed so that Sarn-athrad is over Gelion and the battle at another ford, over Ascar.

Of these two options, I am inclined to think, in view of the lack of any evidence of a change from the story in B, that 1 is more likely. If this is the case, then the battle was and always remained at Sarn Athrad, and so should it in our version, with Sarn Athrad/Athrad Daer, as per "Maeglin", again over Gelion/Duin Daer.

Maedhros wrote:

Now in the Tale of Years, as Findegil has posted, in version B,C and D the battle takes place in the fords over the River Ascar, but the ones who slay the dwarves are not Beren and Co. but rather Celegorm and Curufin. Now, if we are going to use the Tale of Years alternative that the fight was over the ford of the River Ascar, we should take also the fact that it was Celegorm and Curufin who were involved in the fight and not Beren and Co. Can we justify using half a sentence from there but not the other part? Doesn't that make dubious that alteration?

So you would not follow letter 247, which returns the role to Beren? I see no reason to think that the story in this letter necessitates the placing of the ford at any particulary place.

[Maédhros]

So you would not follow letter 247, which returns the role to Beren? I see no reason to think that the story in this letter necessitates the placing of the ford at any particulary place.

I'm sorry for not making myself clear. In the case of the Letter 247, it is explictly staten that Beren regains the rôle that he once had in TY B and that the battle took place about a ford across one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir.

My point was that because Tolkien in that letter changed the rôle of Celegorm and Curufin back to Beren, is it reliable to consider that the battle between the dwarves and Beren and Co. would be in a ford over the River Ascar. If one part of the note was changed, does that make the other part dubious?

Then again, I think that you have made a fine point with:

Of these two options, I am inclined to think, in view of the lack of any evidence of a change from the story in B, that 1 is more likely. If this is the case, then the battle was and always remained at Sarn Athrad, and so should it in our version, with Sarn Athrad/Athrad Daer, as per "Maeglin", again over Gelion/Duin Daer.

[Findegil]

The possible transfer of the name Sarn Athrad to the supposed Ford over Ascar I mention in post #26. And the more I think about it the more I am inclined to feel that this is the way to go.

As Aiwendil did in his post I will put forward my view of the textual development. This is clearly a subjektive view and can be in error in some places, but I hope it will give some insight into my arguments:
The situation that I start my lock with is represented in Q30:
The River Gelion had no falls or rapids.
The Ford named Sarn Athrad was directly south of the confluence of Ascar and Gelion.
The Battle took place at Sarn Athrad.
The gold was cast either actively by the Elves into Ascar (near at hand) or by the dwarves into the Ford over the joined waters of Ascar and Gelion. ( I think that Tolkien meant the second option and wrote Ascar here more figuratively.)

Now Tolkien "discovered" the story of the fight of the Folk of Haleth against the Orcs. This necessitated a change in the geography by which Sarn Athrad moved to a place somewhat north of the confluence of Ascar and Gelion. (I think that in these geographic development the falls of Gelion were introduced, but that can not be demonstrated.)
In view of this the casting of the Gold into Ascar as described in Q30 would become an active deed of the Elves.
That the pass south of the Dolmed led still into Ossirinad and therefore came down south of Ascar is seen by the fact that all the groups of Men that came over the mountains first came to Ossiriand and not to Thargelion. The House of Bëor removed to Estolad by the biding of Felagund and the House of Marach followed them, but the House of Haleth was driven out of Ossiriand by the Green-Elves.

When Tolkien now came to write TY he wanted to avoid the active role the Elves played in the drowning of the hoard. But he also still wanted the Gold to be cast into the River Ascar and not into Gelion, because Ascar was the River that would receive a new name in the course of that story. Thus he changed the place of the battle to be at a Ford over Ascar. (Such a Ford, as is demonstrated above, was anyway necessary.) This change underlies already the very compressed expression in TY A even if it is not made very explicit. That Ford over Ascar was named now Sarn Athrad as is more clearly seen in TY B, C and D in which Tolkien developed the story further by introducing Curufin and Celegrom. (I will not go into detail of that development since it is clearly rejected in Letter no. 247.)

The only further information we have is in the "Maeglin"-papers. There we are given the information that between the ford over Gelion and the confluence with Ascar is a Fall in the River of Gelion. The Name Sarn Athrad is found only three times in these papers: Once (uncorrected) in a note describing Eöls journey to Nogrod (label (ii) by Christopher Tolkien) and in two marginal notes to the unnamed Ford over Gelion in which we are told that the Ford should be renamed from Sarn Athrad to Athrad Daer, Harathrad or Athrad i-Negyth.
Since we see Tolkien here "thinking with the pen" I would interpret the mention of Sarn Athrad in note (ii) as a unconscious use of an long established but now outdated name for the Ford over Gelion. In the other places were he spoke about the Ford he did not name it and in the accompanying notes he developed a new name for the Ford over Gelion since Sarn Athrad, the Stony Ford, was possibly no longer fitting for that Ford and was now used for the Ford over Ascar.

In the above given interpretation of mine a "slip of the pen" is only once needed to make it work. I view that as a evidence that I am not to fare of track, since to supposed that the author is in error by writing about his own creation is a trick that only works for me as ultima ratio. But anyway it is an very subjective interpretation. I hope it will bring some clearness for you about my view on the subject at least.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros wrote:

I'm sorry for not making myself clear. In the case of the Letter 247, it is explictly staten that Beren regains the rôle that he once had in TY B and that the battle took place about a ford across one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir.

But both Ascar and Gelion are counted among the seven rivers. I do not think that the reversion from Celegorm and Curufin back to Beren necessitates a reversion from Ascar back to Gelion.

Findegil wrote:

The possible transfer of the name Sarn Athrad to the supposed Ford over Ascar I mention in post #26.

I had failed to notice the significance of this change earlier.

I have a few disagreements with your summary of the texts.

Now Tolkien "discovered" the story of the fight of the Folk of Haleth against the Orcs. This necessitated a change in the geography by which Sarn Athrad moved to a place somewhat north of the confluence of Ascar and Gelion.

I don't know that it matters, but I don't think this can have been his motivation for moving the ford from its Q30 position. The placing of Sarn Athrad south of the confluence, as in Q30, presents no problem for the story of the battle of the Folk of Haleth and the Orcs, since the Halethrim took refuge on the north side of the confluence.

That the pass south of the Dolmed led still into Ossirinad and therefore came down south of Ascar is seen by the fact that all the groups of Men that came over the mountains first came to Ossiriand and not to Thargelion.

I am not so sure about this. Do we know for certain that the Edain came through that pass? Is it not possible that they came up into Ossiriand out of the southeast, and thus passed south of the mountains? Or, is it not possible that the pass came down north of Ascar and that the Edain crossed the river into Ossiriand (for in any case, Ascar must not be impassable for its whole length).

In the above given interpretation of mine a "slip of the pen" is only once needed to make it work. I view that as a evidence that I am not to fare of track, since to supposed that the author is in error by writing about his own creation is a trick that only works for me as ultima ratio.

But one could make a coherent story out of things without supposing any "slips of the pen" - if Tolkien in fact changed his mind in "Maeglin" and returned Sarn Athrad to Gelion.

It would seem to me very strange for us to use "Athrad Daer", which occurs only as a replacement for Sarn Athrad, for the ford over Gelion, and too retain "Sarn Athrad" for the ford over Ascar. For this was certainly not Tolkien's intention when he wrote "Athrad Daer". On the other hand, it also seems wrong for us to now place the battle, which in every text occurs at Sarn Athrad, at an unnamed ford over Ascar.

[Findegil]

Posted by Aiwendil:

I don't know that it matters, but I don't think this can have been his motivation for moving the ford from its Q30 position. The placing of Sarn Athrad south of the confluence, as in Q30, presents no problem for the story of the battle of the Folk of Haleth and the Orcs, since the Halethrim took refuge on the north side of the confluence.

My asumption that the movement of the ford was necessary is based on the discription of the ford in TN. My feeling is that such a ford builded by isles of shingels with channels of not to deep water between them would be builded so near to a conflunece that it would make both rivers passable. But that is clearly only my oppinion and not a fact.

Posted by Aiwendil:

Do we know for certain that the Edain came through that pass?

At least we know that they came over the mountains. From HoME XI; The Later Quenta Silmarillion; 14 Of the Coming of Men into the West:

§1 ... But he [Felagund] wearied of the chase and passed on alone towards the Mountains of Ered-lindon that he saw shining afar; and taking the Dwarfe-road he crossed Gelion at the Ford of Sarn-athrad, and turining south over the upper streams of Ascar, he came into the north of Ossiriand.
§2 In a valley among the foothills of the Mountains, below the springs of Thalos, he saw lights in the evening, ...
§4 Now these were a part of the kindered and following of Bëor the Old, as he was afterwards called, a chieftain among Men. After many lives of Wandering out of the East he had led them at last over the Mountains, ...
...
§10 But Felagund learned from Bëor that there were many other Men of like mind who were also journeying westward. 'Others of my own kin have crossed the Mountains,' he said, 'and they are wandering not far away: and the Haladin, a people that speak the same tongue as we, are still in the valleys on the eastern slopes, awaiting tidings before they venture further. There are aslo Men of different speech, with whom we have had dealings at times. They were before us in the westward march, but we passed them; for they are a numerous people, and yet keep together and move slowly, being all ruled by one chieftain whom they call Marach.'
...
§13 Soon after the departure of Felagund the other Men of whom Bëor had spoken came alos into Beleriand. First came the Haladin; but meeting the unfriendship of the Nandor they turned north and dwelt in Radhrost, in the country of Caranthir ... The next year, however Marach led his people over the Mountains; and they were a tall and warlike folk, and they marched in ordered companies; and the Green-elves hid themselves and did not waylay them. And Marach hearing that the people of Bëor were dwelling in a green and fertil land, came down the Dwarf-road and settled his people in the country to the south and east of the dwellings of Baran son of Bëor.

Here at least it is clearly stated that the Folk of Bëor and Marach crossed the Mountains. And the Folk of Haleth "turned north", which means they had wandered form east to west so far and not from south to north through Ossirand.
Also we learn that the Ascar cold be crossed at least in its upper course. It is not stated but possible that in his southward movment Finrod still followed the Dwarf-road. A posible southward movment of the Edain after crossing the Mountian at the pass about Dolmed is possible but does not seem to be likley: The landscape of southern Thargelion seemd to be very similar to that of northern Ossiriand (as is to be expected), thus I can't find any good reason why all the Edain if they had used a pass that led them into Thargelion would have crossed Ascar. It is much more likley that they used a pass that led them down into Ossirand. It is trure that we do not know that they used the pass near Dolmed to which the Dwarf-road led. All I can bring forward against a second pass further south are only week arguments. Thus my assumption that they used the pass south of Dolmed "rests in the last resort on nothing more definte than the sound principle that where all is uncertain one's hypothesis must be simplified as fare as possible."(JRR Tolkien in "The Freswæl: Finn and Hengest)

Posted by Aiwendil:

But one could make a coherent story out of things without supposing any "slips of the pen" - if Tolkien in fact changed his mind in "Maeglin" and returned Sarn Athrad to Gelion.

I must say that I have no answer to this. That means it is possible. But I find it unlikley, which is only based on my feeling.

Posted by Aiwendil:

It would seem to me very strange for us to use "Athrad Daer", which occurs only as a replacement for Sarn Athrad, for the ford over Gelion, and too retain "Sarn Athrad" for the ford over Ascar. For this was certainly not Tolkien's intention when he wrote "Athrad Daer". On the other hand, it also seems wrong for us to now place the battle, which in every text occurs at Sarn Athrad, at an unnamed ford over Ascar.

Is it really so strange? Was not the change of Ascar to Flend in Q30 a bit of simillar kind?

Respectfully
Findegil