Saruman's Treachery

[Neithan]

Ultimately, I think Saruman is easily the match of Sauron in his mastery of treachery. His 'term' in Middle Earth has been shorter and so he has not been able to build up the forces to match those of Sauron, but his knowlegde and skill are a good match.

I disagree. Gandalf is said to be equal to Sauron and is greater than Saruman. Saruman did not have to be as great as Sauron to resist a total take over of his mind. Such things are rare and difficult (and probably impossable for one Maia to do to another). Sauron did manage to awaken evil thoughts in Saruman that were already hiding under the surface, but I am sure that Sauron new that Saruman could be treacherous, after all, that is quite common in evil servants. Saruman knew some of Sauron's weaknesses because of the time he spent studying his arts. This does not make him greater than Sauron. Also Saruman could not have invented the rings on his own, he was jealous of Sauron and of Gandalf. Elrond would refer to Saruman as having great power because, as a Maiar, he did have great power when compared to Elves and Men.
Saruman was powerful and skillful (especially with osanwe) but he was not as great as he liked to think he was. His jealousy of those greater than himself ate away at him until he became what he was. Very similar to Morgoth who was jealous of the gifts given to his brethren, thinking himself more worthy than they. Morgoth and Saruman both mocked and immitated those they were jealous of, the diffrence is the scale of their evil.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

it is most likely Sauron knew where the havens of Elrond and Galadriel were located, either threw Saruman or by some other means. That he knew where Lorien is situated is certain, as his forces assailed the Golden Wood. Rivendell is referred to as the 'hidden valley' a few times, so while it may be hidden from enemies, I'm willing to be that Sauron knew at least the general area in which it is located. Once more, Gandalf provides us with a handy quote saying that Rivendell could not withstand Mordor and if the Ring stayed there, eventually Rivendell will be overrun.

Like SpM I'm sure that the locations of both Lothlorien and Rivendell would have been known to Sauron. How did he find out though? It is possible that he discovered this through powers of osanwe or thought- transference

I can understand Sauron learning the location of Rivendell because of the 2nd Age war thing. But of Lothlorien, how can he know when Galadriel weaved some sort of enchantment on her land? & I can't imagine Sauron finding through Osanwe since he lacked the One Ring or maybe you meant via Palantir through Saruman? I've read a passage somewhere in the UT in the chapter of Celebron & Galadriel that Sauron had already perceived Galadriel to be his chief adversary during the crafting of the Mirdain & after the rings were dispatched... he only suspected that she would be the bearer of one of the Three. When he ransacked Eregion, he was thinking of Lorinand but decided it can wait. But other than that... Saruman could've told Sauron because obviously he guessed the right locations.

Btw...
1.) When Gandalf revealed to the Balrog that he was the weilder of the flame of Arnor, why the hell would the Balrog care since it did not know about the elven rings & it was obviously greater than it.
2.) "Weilder of the flame of Arnor." Why does this imply that he was reffering to Narya? Is there any historical background of this "flame of Arnor"? I've never heard of such.

[Neithan]

"Weilder of the flame of Arnor." Why does this imply that he was reffering to Narya? Is there any historical background of this "flame of Arnor"? I've never heard of such.

I used to think he was talking about Narya but I changed my mind, check out this thread, or this one. There are others, check the Forum Index.

As to whether Sauron knew of Lorien consider this quote,

"This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.
"He suspects, but he does not know----not yet."

Of course he knew the location of Lorien out of past experiance and it was right near Dol Guldur. But he did not know for sure if Galadriel had a Ring.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Neithan

Saruman was powerful and skillful (especially with osanwe) but he was not as great as he liked to think he was.

Neithan - these are good points. Perhaps where Saruman's particular skill lies is in his mastery of osanwe. This could throw some light on the dangerous power of his voice; it certainly could throw the whole of Book 3, Chapter 10 - The Voice of Saruman into perspective. He is able to truly get into the heads of many of those who listen, and it is notable that Gandalf is well aware that he will seek to do this.

His jealousy of those greater than himself ate away at him until he became what he was.

I still think that Saruman possessed an incredible inherent power (I will have to refer to UT to check whether any of the Istari are mentioned as having particular skills), but I agree that this was surpassed by that of Gandalf particularly after his 'rebirth'. Saruman was indeed corrupted by the envy and pride which led him into heresy and into alliance with Sauron. If he had been on Middle Earth longer, then I do think he could have built up a power to rival that of Mordor; was this his intention? Was Saruman driven into rash action by the sudden plunge into the War of the Ring? If the ring had not been found and Sauron had not launched into war, then would Saruman eventually have stood against him?

The difference between Saruman and Gandalf was that the latter carried out what he had been charged to do and in effect kept faith in the Light, while the former abandoned his mission and instead followed his own path. I do think that this treacherous tendency was inherent in Saruman as it was, even without any influence from Sauron, which brings up another question, and that is why was he allowed to be the leader of the White Council for so long?

[Neithan]

This could throw some light on the dangerous power of his voice

My thoughts exactly.

which brings up another question, and that is why was he allowed to be the leader of the White Council for so long?

Politics, what are you gonna do

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

I can understand Sauron learning the location of Rivendell because of the 2nd Age war thing. But of Lothlorien, how can he know when Galadriel weaved some sort of enchantment on her land? & I can't imagine Sauron finding through Osanwe since he lacked the One Ring or maybe you meant via Palantir through Saruman? I've read a passage somewhere in the UT in the chapter of Celebron & Galadriel that Sauron had already perceived Galadriel to be his chief adversary during the crafting of the Mirdain & after the rings were dispatched... he only suspected that she would be the bearer of one of the Three. When he ransacked Eregion, he was thinking of Lorinand but decided it can wait. But other than that... Saruman could've told Sauron because obviously he guessed the right locations.

I have to disagree. Sauron knew that there was an Elven kingdom buried in the Golden Wood. He had to. If the common people of Rohan knew about the "Enchantress" in the Golden Wood, and had known so since they had passed down to Calenardhon for the first time, then surely Sauron, with his enormous web of servants and spies, would have known there was an Elven kingdom. And it wouldn't have taken much guessing to figure out just who the sorceress was.

As for whether or not he knew where the Rings were, he must have guessed they were with the Elves. He might have guessed that there was one in any of the following places: Mithlond, Rivendell, Mirkwood, and Lorien. Is there reason to believe that he suspected one was with the Istari? I think not. Saruman, he knew, obviously didn't have one. And if Aragorn could shield his mind from Sauron, surely a fellow Maia could have kept some information hidden (information like how much more respected Gandalf was by Galadriel, Elrond, and Cirdan).

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Btw...
1.) When Gandalf revealed to the Balrog that he was the weilder of the flame of Arnor, why the hell would the Balrog care since it did not know about the elven rings & it was obviously greater than it.
2.) "Weilder of the flame of Arnor." Why does this imply that he was reffering to Narya? Is there any historical background of this "flame of Arnor"? I've never heard of such.

For the record, it was the Flame of ANOR, nor ARNOR. The Flame of the Sun (or of light in general), not the Flame of the Royal Kingdom.

I don't see that this necessarily refers to Narya. Remember that Gandalf also calls the Balrog "Flame of Udun" (Flame of Darkness, more or less). This title/power of the Balrog's would seem to be tied to his power as a vassal of Morgoth. In the same way, Gandalf's parallel (and superior?) power of the Flame of Anor, would be tied to his power as the vassal of Manwe, and the forces of goodness.

Another thought: if Gandalf had used Narya, surely Frodo would have felt it?

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Another thought: if Gandalf had used Narya, surely Frodo would have felt it?

What an astute observation. But Gandalf as a maia may have added some extra mojo on that secrecy. My hypothesis is that Gandalf did not use the Red Ring until after he was resurrected as Gandalf the White. Why? Because simply as you have said, Frodo did not feel it nor recognized as he did with the Lady Galadriel. But did not Galadriel chose freely to confirm it herself?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I doubt Saruman would give Sauron any inside information.

He was probably personally looking forward to taking the minds of Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond once he found the One Ring. But to do that, he had to get it before Sauron did.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

What an astute observation. But Gandalf as a maia may have added some extra mojo on that secrecy. My hypothesis is that Gandalf did not use the Red Ring until after he was resurrected as Gandalf the White. Why? Because simply as you have said, Frodo did not feel it nor recognized as he did with the Lady Galadriel. But did not Galadriel chose freely to confirm it herself?

I think that Frodo hadn't the skill nor the mental prowess to discern ringbearers from common folk when he hung out with Gandalf. He was growing in his 'ring strength,' yet had not seen the 'lidless Eye' until Lothlorien, after which time Galadriel reveals herself as, seemingly, she now knows that Frodo can see her Ring.

And if he did notice something a bit different about Gandalf, he may have thought that this was do to 'exposure' - seeing more into the nature of his friend and mentor.

Gandalf's statement on the Bridge is not in regards to his Ring. I always associated it with Iluvatar, but this may not be right either.

Saruman may have never mentioned (or even showed an interest in) any of the Elven Rings in order to dissemble his motives. And didn't he create a ring of his own?

Sauron knew full well where at least two of the Three lay. Think about it - you're the (almost) all-seeing Eye, yet there's these blank spots on the 'map' that for some reason you can never see into. I know where I would look. Or did Galadriel and Elrond have some kind of shielding device that confused Sauron?

And Sauron's mind wasn't 'firewalled' in the least. Saruman must have picked his mind about the ringmaking, and Galadriel said something about 'knowing his thoughts,' and I think that Gandalf ran around in there too ('he's afraid').