Ruin of Doriath - Final Part

[Findegil]

Dear > Daer: That systematic typo again. I will try better for the next version.

River Gelion -> Duin Daer: Agreed. I did not hink about it and did just replace Gelion by Duin Daer, but it is beter to skip River in fornt of Duin.

RD-EX-66:
What Q30 has to ofer we have already used. The problem is that the abode of Beren and Lúthien is only given in "The Problem of Ros". And I think Christopher Tolkien based this passage on the info given there. The alternativ for this passage is simply not to give the info it provides (as fare as I can see).

Deletion of "yet": I understood it as a kind of repeating, since we had already mention that Beren and Lúthien were "in that time of respite which Lúthien had won" in the sentence before. But that is a weak argument and if you think the yet should not be deleted we will take in back in.

RD-EX-68: Okay, I can see your point. As it is we have no other source for this bit. So it must go.

RD-EX-70: In view of TN, Note 13 I thought that it might even have be the orginal reading of the text.
I agree that the sentence would read better with your suggestions. But the dwarves are normaly no terror. (If we would have used the info of the Dwarve-host crossing Athrad Daer, I would have accepted "the terror of the dwarves". ) Could we take:

... and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death and the terror of {Orcs}[war]; but Thingol is slain.’

RD-EX-72:
Okay, it seems my interpretation of the edited sentence was to much forced if it come across to you in such a way. Your emendations lock good. we should take them.

All changes not mention I agree with and willtake them up for the next version if nobody speaks up against them.

Some of the changes will come up again in the alternative § given in posts in this thread, but if we will take these alternatives, I will try to work the changes into them.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

RD-EX-66:
What Q30 has to ofer we have already used. The problem is that the abode of Beren and Lúthien is only given in "The Problem of Ros". And I think Christopher Tolkien based this passage on the info given there. The alternativ for this passage is simply not to give the info it provides (as fare as I can see).

I think that it would be a shame not to use that passage, but when I looked in the Problem of Ros, I was unable to find it. Can you point it to me?

... and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death and the terror of {Orcs}[war]; but Thingol is slain.’

I think that it is too great a change. I would rather like:

‘Fire and death {and the terror of Orcs;} but Thingol is slain.’

That Ascar was not crossable near to its confluence is witnessed by the tale of the People of Haleth and there stand against the orcs. They withdrawn into the angle between Gelion and Ascar and it is clear that both rivers were an effective protection.
Considering the passage from TY we need a ford over Ascar. If the mountian pass did follow the river (as is likely for such roads) it is possible to supposed that it did so on the south bank. If the road did bend south at the point were the dots end, it would have crossed the river a bit further from its source.
After that long winding discussion I will know give an alternative text for some § that is soppossed to follow TY by placing the fight at the Ford over Ascar. Since the names discussed earlier were clearly meant to be the ford over Gelion [Duin Daer] I have not taken them for the Ford of Ascar. Thus the Ford of the ambush is unnamed.

I think that you maybe right about this.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-66:
What was driven from the Problem of Ros is the reference to Dior's dwelling. It is in §6 of that text, page 369. Lock especialy in note 9 to that text.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-66

Findegil wrote:

The problem is that the abode of Beren and Lúthien is only given in "The Problem of Ros".

It is? The name Lanthir Lamath is given in note 9 to the text (and in the Shibboleth), and it is here that we find an explanation for the name "Elwing" - but that they dwelt on Tol Galen in the river Adurant is not told here. It must derive from something, but I cannot think what. If it can be found, we ought to use the original text rather than QS77. Also, we should follow the exact words of "Ros" rather than Christopher's reformulation. Rather than:

<Sil77 {At}And at that time Beren and Lúthien{ yet} dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon flowed down to join with {Gelion}[Duin Dear]; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel. The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray, for she was born on a night of stars, whose light glittered in the spray of the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.>

I would say:

<Sil77 And [a]t that time Beren and Lúthien yet dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon flowed down to join with {Gelion}[Duin Dear]; and their son Dior Eluchíl had to wife Nimloth, kinswoman of Celeborn, prince of Doriath, who was wedded to the Lady Galadriel[,]> <Shibboloth and beside one great waterfall , called in Sindarin Lanthir Lamath ('waterfall of echoing voices'), Dior had his house.> <QS77 The sons of Dior and Nimloth were Eluréd and Elurín; and a daughter also was born to them, and she was named Elwing, which is Star-spray.> <Ros For she was born on a clear night of stars, the light of which glittered in the spray of the waterfall beside {his} her father's house.

RD-EX-70

I would go with Maedhros's suggestion.


The continuation of my comments:

RD-EX-75

I don't think I understand the change of "as they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed" to "as the Dwarves entered the woods on the further bank".

RD-EX-76

<TN Now was that {great }fight of the {Stony}[Great] Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; {and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain,} and well nigh all their host{.}[ were slain,]

I don't see the need to delete "and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain". True, we are not told of any Dwarvish chiefs other than Naugladur. But this is just as true of the original TN. Surely we can suppose that there were lesser Dwarvish leaders under Naugladur, as indeed we assert in the very next sentence.

RD-EX-78

I'm sorry to say I think this change goes too far. We don't know that the bow Beren had here was the Bow of Bregor, nor that it was at this point that he gave it to Dior. We simply can't state it, I'm afraid.

§49 (§38)

and thereat he made alone upon Naugladur and his companions, and having slain the foremost of these the others fled away {amid elfin laughter},

I suppose the rationale here is that in the later legendarium, the Elves would not laugh here. But I don't know that that's true.

§50 (§39)

I will slay this {Elf}[Men]

Should be "Man".

RD-EX-79

<TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on for ever above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung], and so do still

We must delete "and so do still" in view of the sinking of Beleriand.

RD-EX-81

of Berens return Melain

Two typos: should be ". . . of Beren's return Melian . . .".

§ 51e (§44)

Then said Tinúviel that she desired not things of worth or precious stones but the elfin gladness of the forest

"elfin" > "Elven"

§51f (§45)

Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and named it anew Rathloriel, Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained

Didn't we say already that Ascar was renamed Rathloriel? We should not say it twice.

RD-EX-83

<TN Yet{yet} is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the{ seven} sons of Fëanor, remembering their oath.

We have just said that the deathless oath was waked from sleep - so I think we must change the prelminary "Yet" here. Perhaps:

<TN {yet is it to tell that} For bitterness entered into the hearts of the{ seven} sons of Fëanor, remembering their oath.

RD-EX-84

<TN And Celegrom {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the{ southern} vales[ of Doriath], ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes

Elwing's age is unclear in TN, but in the later chronology she is 3 or 4 at this point; in view of this and the fact that there is no later reference (as far as I recall) to her wearing the Nauglamir during this period, I think we should drop the reference.

RD-EX-85

and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, {nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko} – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,<editorial addition where this had come from,>’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’>

I don't understand this change.

RD-SL-32.5

<TY and {Celegorn}[Celegorm] {inflames} inflamed the brethren,>

It sounds awkward to repeat "brethren" after "Then went Curufin unto his brethren". I would say:

]<TY and {Celegorn}[Celegorm] {inflames} inflamed {the brethren} them,>

and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of {elfin}[elven] folk upon {elfin}[elven] folk

This is curious. I was about to say that we must change "first" to "second", but then I realized that of course the kin-slaying at Alqualonde was already present in the Lost Tales. Perhaps the first kin-slaying is not deemed "premeditated"? I suppose we must keep the text as it is, but it is rather strange.

RD-SL-33 {Dior}><TY the east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}was slain, RD-EX-89 <TY {There}there fell also {Celegorn}[Celegorm] (by Dior's hand)

We must either change the comma after "slain" to a semicolon or edit the text of TY. I would go with the former.

RD-EX-92

<Sil77 Of this Maedhros later indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing.>

Why have we added "later"?

<TN Now was naught left of the seed of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion] son of {Egnor}[Barahir] save Elwing the Lovely

In TN, Auredhir was slain and Elwing escaped, so this was true. But now the fate of her brothers is not known for sure, so we cannot know that naught was left of the seed of Beren save Elwing.

<TY hearing the rumour /that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens/>

It seems unlikely that this is the rumour that they heard, since this is listed under 506-507 and the exiles of Gondolin did not reach Sirion until 511 - where indeed they found Elwing's people already. The meaning of "rumour" is unclear, and it may be, as Christopher interprets it, a reference to the people of Gondolin. But that is far from clear, and if so it represents a change in the story. I would delete the whole phrase and simply say:

And in time they departed for ever from the glades of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] . . .

RD-EX-95

And thus did all the fates of the fairies weave then to one strand

If we are changing "lamp of Faerie" to "lamp of Feanor" should we not change "fairie" or "faerie" at all occurrences to "Elves" or something else?

I still need to review the arguments relating to RD-SL-27 before I have anything to say about that.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-66:
I we lock for the source of the home of Beren and Lúthien on Tal Galen. The suggestion about the original text is good.

RD-EX-70: Agreed.

RD-EX-75: Since I wanted the Ents involved in the fight nearer to the ford, to make the reduced numbers of Greenelves more possible and so to follow the Letter more closly than Christopher Tolkien had done. Thus I toke in stead of the wood benath Mount Dolmed the woded further shore of the river which is mention before.

RD-EX-76: Agreed, we will hold the slain chiefes as I did in my alternate version.

RD-EX-78: Well, yes it is fare fetched. But on the other hand, way shouldn't he use that bow? But for the sake of safty we will scip that change.

§49 "the elfin laughter":
The statment goes back to a stage when the fight on the further shore was discribed as in TN. There the flying Dwarves were discribed in detail. And it was especialy stated that he lock of the flying Dwarves filled the Elves with mirth. Do we consider to hold that motiv, or are we just going not to skip the pure statment that the elves laughed. And if the later isn't that a slight change of meaning? For the former I would suggest to add the description:

§47 (§324) <TN Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them> RD-EX-75 <Sil77 eastwards towards the mountains. And as {they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed}<editorial change the Dwarves entered the woods on the further bank> there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> RD-EX-76 <TN Now was that {great }fight of the {Stony}[Great] Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host{.}, RD-EX-77 <TN for even though Naugladur and his captains led their bands stoutly never might they grip their foe, and death fell like rain upon their ranks until the most part broke and fled, and a noise of clear laughter echoed from the Elves thereat, and they forebore to shoot more, for the illshapen figures of the Dwarves as they fled, their white beards tornby the wind, filled them with mirth.>

§48 (§325) <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and {he remembered the words of Gwendelin, for} behold, Beren came towards him and he cast aside his bow, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.>

§49 (§326) <TN Then said Beren: ‘Ward thy life an thou canst, O crook-legged murderer, else will I take it,’ and Naugladur bid him even the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the necklace of wonder, that he be suffered to go unharmed; but Beren said: ‘Nay, that may I still take when thou art slain,’ and thereat he made alone upon Naugladur and his companions, and having slain the foremost of these the others fled away amid {elfin}[elven] laughter, and so Beren came upon Naugladur, slayer of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]. ...

RD-EX-79: Nice catch. But we should delet also the "for ever" in the first sentence, thus we will get:

§51b (§329) RD-EX-79 <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on{ for ever} above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung]{, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now is the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none seek the treasure that {it}[Ascar] guards [near by] nor dare ever to cross the{ magic} stream[of Duin Daer] at that enchanted place.

§51e:
Maedhros suggested "elfin gladness" -> "elvish gladness", at least I wouldn't kapitalise "Elven" if that is what we take in here.

§51f:
Yes we have mentioned the renaming in the version were the Elves drown the treassure activley (fight at the Ford over Duin Daer), but not so in the alternate version (fight at a Ford over Ascar).
If we take the first version i would suggest:

§51f (§333) Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river{ Ascar, and named it anew} Rathloriel, Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained{.} ...

RD-EX-83: Agreed.

RD-EX-84:
Agreed. Elwing is to young to wear the Nauglamir. But I would rather change the sentence to make it refer to Dior, which would agree to the earlier statment:

§56a (§337) ... RD-EX-84 <TN And Celegrom {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the{ southern} vales[ of Doriath], ‘and {Elwing his daughter}[he] bears it whitherso {she}[he] goes - but do you not forget, ...

RD-EX-85:
That change was discussed between me an Maedhros. In view of his reading of the passage, I think we must skip the complete last part (sad as it is):

§56b (§338) ... ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior{ waxed wroth,} bidding him be gone{, nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’}>RD-EX-86 <TY [ returned] {Dior returns} no /clear/ answer /to their claim./>

Thus solving the problemyou see.

RD-SL-32.5: Agreed.

"first premeditated war": Well, I did ever understand it with the emphasis on "premeditated", which made that kinslaying much worth than the first.

RD-SL-33, RD-EX-89:
I also like the change from comma to semicolon more than the second option.

RD-EX-92:
The later was added because the fight was not yet over, though I thought he would not search for the brethern while the weapons stil spoke. But the add was maybe in the wrong place. This would be better:[quote]§57 & §58a (§339) ... RD-EX-92 <Sil77 Of this Maedhros indeed repented, and sought later for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing.>RD-EX-93 <TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].)>

§58c:
Thus you think we should make that sentence read thus:

§58c (§341) RD-EX-94 <TN Now{ was naught left of the seed of Beren Ermabwed son of Egnor save} Elwing the Lovely{, and she} wandered <editorial addition along with Nimloth> in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to her>. ...

I agree on the reference to the Gondolindrim has to go. Your suggestion is good.

I also agree on "faries"-> "Elves"

Locking forward for your comments on RD-SL-27.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

RD-EX-66:
Tol-Galen is only twice mentioned in the HoME Series, and all these phrases are in the Quenta Silmarillion in HoME V. The first is a footnote to chapter 9: Of Beleriand and its Realms. In the discription of Ossiriand the footnote reffers to the name Adurant. It was later inserted and reads:

And at a point nearly midway in its course the stream of Adurant divided and joined again, enclosing a fair island; and this was called Togalen, the Green Isle. There Beren and Lúthien dwelt after their return.

The second is in the conclusion of the chapter 15 The Quest of the Silmaril 3. It reads:

It is said that Beren and Luthien returned to the northern lands of Middle-earth, and dwelt together for a time as living man and woman; for taking up again their mortal form in Doriath, they went forth alone, fearing neither thirst nor hunger, and they passed beyond the rivers into Ossiriand, and abode there in the green isle, Tol-galen, in the midst of Adurant, until all tidings of them ceased. Therefore the Noldor afterwards called that land Gyrth-i-Guinar, the country of the Dead that Live, and no mortal man spoke ever again with Beren son of Barahir; and whether the second span of his life was brief or long is not known to Elves or Men, for none saw Beren and Luthien leave the world or marked where at last their bodies lay.

Both will surely be used in their proper place. Thus if we wont give the info that Beren and Lúthien dwelt on Tol-Galen in our current chapter again, I would suggest we use the passage from Sil77.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-66

Thus if we wont give the info that Beren and Lúthien dwelt on Tol-Galen in our current chapter again, I would suggest we use the passage from Sil77.

Yes - but considering that exactly the same information will be given twice elsewhere, and Tolkien didn't see a need to restate it at this point in the narrative, I don't see why we should. I would skip it.

RD-EX-75

Okay, this change seems to make sense now. Still, I would retain "they" instead of replacing it with "the Dwarves".

RD-EX-78

I agree, nothing necessitates that he was not using the Bow of Bregor at this point. But as you say it is far-fetched. What we would need is not the absence of evidence to the contrary but rather the presence of evidence for his use of the Bow of Bregor, which we don't have. So we must skip it.

§49
Well, I'm not sure whether to retain the Elven laughter or not. A case could be made that it's out of keeping with the later character of the Elves.

§51e:

Maedhros suggested "elfin gladness" -> "elvish gladness", at least I wouldn't kapitalise "Elven" if that is what we take in here.

You're right - the capitalization was a mistake.

RD-EX-85

Sorry, I had neglected to reread the discussion that had already taken place between you and Maedhros. You propose:

§56b (§338) ... ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior{ waxed wroth,} bidding him be gone{, nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’}>RD-EX-86 <TY [ returned] {Dior returns} no /clear/ answer /to their claim./>

I would go with this, except that I don't see the need for the additions to the last sentence. It is clear from context that it is "to their claim" that he returns no answer - and considering that we have deleted his words precisely in order to follow the statement that he returned no answer, I don't see any reason to modify it with "clear".

RD-EX-79

I still don't see the need for "later". Maedhros does nothing more in the fight; and in any case, we don't specify when he makes his search.

RD-SL-27

This turns out to be a tricky issue. I think you are right that we should consider the second Silmarillion map here. But I'm afraid I must disagree with you regarding its interpretation. I think any ambiguity in the map was quite unintentional - there is no suggestion that the road crosses the Ascar. If it did, it would have to be in the foothills of the mountains and quite close to the sources of Ascar - and this is quite out of keeping with any accounts of the battle. Moreover, it seems very unlikely that Tolkien would not draw the ford of Ascar on the map if such a ford not only existed but was also the site of this important battle.

So I would say that the second Silmarillion map cannot be considered to coincide with the TY version. What this leaves us with is the Lost Tales which put the battle at the ford of Aros (in a vague and unclear geography), the Sketch and the Quenta which put the battle at the stony ford over Gelion, and finally the second Silmarillion map and TY which are at variance, one putting the battle at the Fords of Ascar and the other suggesting that no such ford existed.

If either TY or the second Silmarillion map were clearly later than the other, then matters would be more clear. But they are both, as far as I can tell, from about 1951. We therefore have three possible explanations:

1. "Ascar" in TY is a mistake for "Gelion". This seems plausible at least, since despite the fact that the ford is over Gelion, the river Ascar is very closely associated with the story due to the casting of the gold into it and its renaming.

2. As unlikely as it seems, Tolkien intended the Ford of Ascar to be in the mountains, very close to the source of the river, and yet did not indicate this on the map.

3. Tolkien changed the story in between the second Silmarillion map and TY. In this case of course we cannot know which was the final conception without determining which of these texts came first.

In the absence of any further evidence concerning dates of composition, option 3 cannot enter into our consideration. That leaves us to decide between 1 and 2. To me, 1 seems far more likely - so I suppose in the end I am for keeping the battle at the ford over Duin Daer.