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#1 | |
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Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
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From FotR, Prologue, 1 Concerning Hobbits, pg 20
Quote:
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If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau |
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#2 |
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Wight
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Although everything you've said is reasonable, I remain unconvinced. There are several times when the people in question call what they are doing magic. Like, for example, the dwarf song in the hobbit; The Dwarves of yore made mighty spells, and Gandalf puts 'a shutting spell' (in his own words) on the door in Moria, and says at the west-gate of Moria 'I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose.'
Now, it seems fairly reasonable that, whether magic consists of just knowing something extra, or actual spells (although, I don't really see the difference) if the person doing the spell calls it magic, than so can we.
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This is my quest, to follow that star; no matter how hopeless, no matter how far. To fight for the right, without question or pause. To be willing to march into Hell for a Heavenly cause! -Man of La Mancha |
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#3 |
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Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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It’s interesting that you cite those particular instances of magic Garen insofar as they are “spells”. The earliest appearance of the word spel in English was in none other than Tolkien’s favourite work, Beowulf where it means a narrative or prolonged (and learned?) discourse, and sometimes, even, a sermon. Now, as time went on, “spell” began to become more and more closely associated with magical incantations, but the references to story or narrative, and even to time (“let’s sit here for a spell”) remain.
Tolkien, obviously, knew very well what a ‘spel’ was: a discourse or narrative told by someone. In the case of the magical spells “cast” by his characters, then, they are not doing anything ‘un’ or even ‘supernatural’ they are just telling particular kinds of stories or narratives. More intriguingly, they are doing so with an idea to instruct. In all the instances of spel in Beowulf the word is used not just to tell a story, but a story that is being told with a specific purpose: there is a point to the telling, and this point is invariably to provoke action from the listener, or to sway their opinion. So these narratives, or discourses (or sermons?) that people give to inanimate objects in Middle-earth are being told in order to ‘convince’ or to sway these inanimate objects to behave in particular ways. Just as the ‘magic’ that lies behind the Lorien cloaks or the One Ring are really just forms of ‘technology’ that we don’t understand, so too are the spells cast really just forms (or even dialects) of language that we don’t know. In effect, when Gandalf casts his spell on the door he is speaking a ‘stone-language’ and ‘convincing’ the door to remain shut. (As I write this, I seem to recall davem making very much this same point in another thread, somewhere, sometime. Should try to dig that up and reference it here.)
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Scribbling scrabbling. |
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#4 |
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Wight
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Most instructive, Fordim. I learn something new every day around here.
And, although that all makes sense, why does Tolkien then only use 'spell' in a context that could mean magic? At other times, when the 'convincing' is a bit more mundane, there is no mention of spells. (See Theoden and Bilbo) Indeed, with Bilbo, although Gandalf does a good deal of convincing, he later tells Frodo that Bilbo gave up the ring of his own accord. I don't actually know what that might mean, but it seems to be significant somehow. I mean, if he was compelled by spell to give up the ring, gandalf says that it would break him. (well, actually Frodo. But, since Frodo had had the ring at that point for about 24 hours, we may assume that it would have broken Bilbo as well)Although, I still don't really get why spel makes it not magic. Wherever the word came from, it certainly now carries the magic connotation. I can't remember where the quote is from, but I've always agreed with whoever said "ninety nine percent of magic is simply knowing one extra fact)
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This is my quest, to follow that star; no matter how hopeless, no matter how far. To fight for the right, without question or pause. To be willing to march into Hell for a Heavenly cause! -Man of La Mancha |
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#5 | |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 886
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Whenever we speak of magin in LOTR, I always think of Gandalf's confrontation with the Balrog, not at the Brdige, but by the Doors of Balin's Tomb.
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Anyone ever found anything that mentions these 'Words of Command'? |
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#6 |
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Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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I have found the post by davem in which he addresses pretty much all the same things I do above, but in a much more compelling and fully developed manner.
quel suprise
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Scribbling scrabbling. |
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#7 |
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Scent of Simbelmynë
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Interesting observations, Fordim, and thanks for the post by davem. That's really quite a gem.
The only thing I have to add to this line of inquiry is the fact that some of the creatures that used these kinds of magic are the kinds that would have the natural affinity with the material they're using. For instance, one never sees a dwarf using anything like magic on wood or trees. Dwarves, naturally enough, are able to "convince" stone to obey them; which only makes sense considering the circumstances surrounding the awakening of the Fathers and that their creator was Aule. Likewise the Ents have the affinity for trees, an obvious choice for those created at the request of Yavanna.
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The seasons fall like silver swords, the years rush ever onward; and soon I sail, to leave this world, these lands where I have wander'd. O Elbereth! O Queen who dwells beyond the Western Seas, spare me yet a little time 'ere white ships come for me! |
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