The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-13-2005, 08:03 AM   #1
Neithan
Wight
 
Neithan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
Neithan has just left Hobbiton.
From FotR, Prologue, 1 Concerning Hobbits, pg 20
Quote:
They possessed from the first the art of disappearing swiftly and silently, when large folk whom they do not wish to meet come blundering by; and this art they have developed until to Men it may seem magical.
Of course he may have mentioned it in the Hobbit as well, I can't remember.
__________________
If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau
Neithan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2005, 08:45 AM   #2
Garen LiLorian
Wight
 
Garen LiLorian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The frigid white wilderness of the Midwest
Posts: 235
Garen LiLorian has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Garen LiLorian
Although everything you've said is reasonable, I remain unconvinced. There are several times when the people in question call what they are doing magic. Like, for example, the dwarf song in the hobbit; The Dwarves of yore made mighty spells, and Gandalf puts 'a shutting spell' (in his own words) on the door in Moria, and says at the west-gate of Moria 'I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs, that was ever used for such a purpose.'

Now, it seems fairly reasonable that, whether magic consists of just knowing something extra, or actual spells (although, I don't really see the difference) if the person doing the spell calls it magic, than so can we.
__________________
This is my quest, to follow that star; no matter how hopeless, no matter how far. To fight for the right, without question or pause. To be willing to march into Hell for a Heavenly cause! -Man of La Mancha
Garen LiLorian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2005, 09:08 AM   #3
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
Fordim Hedgethistle has been trapped in the Barrow!
It’s interesting that you cite those particular instances of magic Garen insofar as they are “spells”. The earliest appearance of the word spel in English was in none other than Tolkien’s favourite work, Beowulf where it means a narrative or prolonged (and learned?) discourse, and sometimes, even, a sermon. Now, as time went on, “spell” began to become more and more closely associated with magical incantations, but the references to story or narrative, and even to time (“let’s sit here for a spell”) remain.

Tolkien, obviously, knew very well what a ‘spel’ was: a discourse or narrative told by someone. In the case of the magical spells “cast” by his characters, then, they are not doing anything ‘un’ or even ‘supernatural’ they are just telling particular kinds of stories or narratives. More intriguingly, they are doing so with an idea to instruct. In all the instances of spel in Beowulf the word is used not just to tell a story, but a story that is being told with a specific purpose: there is a point to the telling, and this point is invariably to provoke action from the listener, or to sway their opinion.

So these narratives, or discourses (or sermons?) that people give to inanimate objects in Middle-earth are being told in order to ‘convince’ or to sway these inanimate objects to behave in particular ways. Just as the ‘magic’ that lies behind the Lorien cloaks or the One Ring are really just forms of ‘technology’ that we don’t understand, so too are the spells cast really just forms (or even dialects) of language that we don’t know. In effect, when Gandalf casts his spell on the door he is speaking a ‘stone-language’ and ‘convincing’ the door to remain shut.

(As I write this, I seem to recall davem making very much this same point in another thread, somewhere, sometime. Should try to dig that up and reference it here.)
__________________
Scribbling scrabbling.
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2005, 09:45 AM   #4
Garen LiLorian
Wight
 
Garen LiLorian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The frigid white wilderness of the Midwest
Posts: 235
Garen LiLorian has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Garen LiLorian
Most instructive, Fordim. I learn something new every day around here.
And, although that all makes sense, why does Tolkien then only use 'spell' in a context that could mean magic? At other times, when the 'convincing' is a bit more mundane, there is no mention of spells. (See Theoden and Bilbo) Indeed, with Bilbo, although Gandalf does a good deal of convincing, he later tells Frodo that Bilbo gave up the ring of his own accord. I don't actually know what that might mean, but it seems to be significant somehow. I mean, if he was compelled by spell to give up the ring, gandalf says that it would break him. (well, actually Frodo. But, since Frodo had had the ring at that point for about 24 hours, we may assume that it would have broken Bilbo as well)
Although, I still don't really get why spel makes it not magic. Wherever the word came from, it certainly now carries the magic connotation. I can't remember where the quote is from, but I've always agreed with whoever said "ninety nine percent of magic is simply knowing one extra fact)
__________________
This is my quest, to follow that star; no matter how hopeless, no matter how far. To fight for the right, without question or pause. To be willing to march into Hell for a Heavenly cause! -Man of La Mancha
Garen LiLorian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2005, 10:24 AM   #5
Essex
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Essex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 886
Essex has just left Hobbiton.
Whenever we speak of magin in LOTR, I always think of Gandalf's confrontation with the Balrog, not at the Brdige, but by the Doors of Balin's Tomb.
Quote:
'But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength.....Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.

What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces...... Ah! I have never felt so spent, but it is passing.
This Word of Command always fascinates me, and I've never been able to find anything else about them. (I know Gandalf uses a Word of Command to light up the wood on Caradrhas, but I think we're talking different levels of spell here!)

Anyone ever found anything that mentions these 'Words of Command'?
Essex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2005, 10:37 AM   #6
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
Fordim Hedgethistle has been trapped in the Barrow!
I have found the post by davem in which he addresses pretty much all the same things I do above, but in a much more compelling and fully developed manner.

quel suprise
__________________
Scribbling scrabbling.
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2005, 10:02 PM   #7
Sophia the Thunder Mistress
Scent of Simbelmynë
 
Sophia the Thunder Mistress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Aboard Highwind, bound for Traverse Town
Posts: 1,780
Sophia the Thunder Mistress has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Sophia the Thunder Mistress
Interesting observations, Fordim, and thanks for the post by davem. That's really quite a gem.

The only thing I have to add to this line of inquiry is the fact that some of the creatures that used these kinds of magic are the kinds that would have the natural affinity with the material they're using. For instance, one never sees a dwarf using anything like magic on wood or trees. Dwarves, naturally enough, are able to "convince" stone to obey them; which only makes sense considering the circumstances surrounding the awakening of the Fathers and that their creator was Aule. Likewise the Ents have the affinity for trees, an obvious choice for those created at the request of Yavanna.
__________________
The seasons fall like silver swords, the years rush ever onward; and soon I sail, to leave this world, these lands where I have wander'd. O Elbereth! O Queen who dwells beyond the Western Seas, spare me yet a little time 'ere white ships come for me!
Sophia the Thunder Mistress is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:37 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.