Saruman's fireball

[The Only Real Estel]

PJ decided not to put that in the movie so he had to show the end of Sarumon some how. he also had to show that he had lost his power over Gandalf. retreating into the tower would have done nothing to help in showing the end of him. by firing the fire ball at Gandalf and him reflecting it or what ever shows the Sarumon no longer had any power over him

True, but it probably would've shown Gandalf's power over Saruman well enough to leave out the fireball & just have Gandalf break his staff.

The only problem I have with this, is then people asking, why didn't Saruman shoot up the ents, or why didn't Gandalf shoot light rays out of his staff against the orcs? He did it before why not now?

Great point. In trying to put myself in the shoes of a person who has just seen the movie without having read the books, I've found that it would be very confusing that Gandalf can fight off Gimli, Legolas, & Aragorn in three seconds, blind Nazgul, etc., but never seems to make much use of such powers once the real fighting starts.

When I watched TTT for the first time, I assumed Saruman did nothing for several reasons: (A) He was taken by suprise (somehow) & caught off guard & (B) The damage was already 98% done by the time he had come out. Now I suppose to add to your question about shooting up the ents, a non-book reader could assume that he did nothing because he didn't have his staff with him when he was out on the balcony.

Of course, going by Jackson's version, he could've blasted all the ents out of spite because they turned his tower into an island--but for some reason he didn't. There are definitly holes that can be found (as usual). I guess I view it as a throw-away seen, but I'm still not greatly bothered by it.

[Encaitare]

I didn't like the fireball, nor did I like how Gandalf is somehow mysteriously impervious to flame -- maybe he built up a fire tolerance from fighting that Balrog? You know, the wingless one?

While I didn't care for that aspect of the scene, I'm not going to dwell on it. I'll just look at Grima instead. Heh. Yay Brad Dourif.

I didn't really mind so much the fireball. What kind of got to me was that I thought the scene was too short. As in the book Saruman should have tried seducing Gandalf. But for plain movie goers, that might have taken a bit too long. What I thought was a little ridiculous was how Gandalf was begging Saruman to know where Sauron was going to strike. When I saw FOTR three years ago, I knew next to nothing about LOTR, and by the end of the movie, even I knew that in ROTK, the final battle would take place in Gondor, whatever that was. And to make matters worse, they even say so in TTT. And isn't it pretty obvious, since Sauron lives right next to Gondor. I mean what's he going to do, sneak hundreds of miles to go attack Dale or something, when the greatest kingdom of Men is right in front of him? In the books I got the impression that Gandalf just wanted to know Sauron's plan for attack, and more importantly when. I'm very sure that Gandalf had known for a very long time that it would be in Minas Tirith. So in the movie it just seems kind out odd that Gandalf has no clue and needs Saurman to tell him. But I really didn't mind the fireball...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I think the fireball added confusion to a scene that was going quite well. The films are full of these little effects though, so it was not surprising that they threw in a little magic. I think it is detrimental to the scene and should have been left out.

[Essex]

Estel, re

Of course, going by Jackson's version, he could've blasted all the ents out of spite because they turned his tower into an island--but for some reason he didn't. There are definitly holes that can be found (as usual).

This is my main gripe with the Scriptwriters. When we have large (or small) changes from the book we can find plot holes amongst many of them, as your example above shows.

I remember a big discussion on another forum a couple of years back where we were musing what would have happened if, say, Pippin was replaced by Glorfindel in the Fellowship. I was on the 'keep Pippin' side of the debate, and it really showed how TIGHT Tolkien's plot was, and if you start changing anything, it has a domino effect on the rest of the story.

Anyway, I can find no plot holes in the Books. (I'm not talking about Deus ex Machina by the way, so don't mention the eagles!) Has anyone found any plot holes at all in the books?

[Lolidir]

one thing that hs to be made clear, and it is in many other discussions so i wont say to much about it.

in the books Tolkien doesnt use magic that way other writers do like Harry Potter for example. Tolkien's magic is more of a person's power over nature and its more suttle. like Sarumon using words to cast spells, or Galadriel being able to tel future and talk to people. its more suttle things like that. Tolkien doesnt do things like some one causing a big explosion and killing a massive amount of people. but as i said that is covered in other threads so go look into those.

one thing you have to remember is that the people did what they wanted to with the movie, and the movies are almost never as good as the books. you can always find something to pick about. they might have put it in there just to make you complain or to make you think or maybe they did it because they thougth that it would be cool

[Rose Cotton]

in the books Tolkien doesnt use magic that way other writers do like Harry Potter for example. Tolkien's magic is more of a person's power over nature and its more suttle. like Sarumon using words to cast spells, or Galadriel being able to tel future and talk to people. its more suttle things like that. Tolkien doesnt do things like some one causing a big explosion and killing a massive amount of people. but as i said that is covered in other threads so go look into those.

That is a good point. When I saw the fireball it didn't bother me because it was a deviation from the books. There was something else about it that I just couldn't put my finger on. Then I figured it out. I was magic.

In the book magic is often alluded to but it is suble is it is seen at all. And most of it is so enveloped in the world that we don't even think of it as magic anymore.

Ex. Legolas walking on the snow, the ring turning the bearer invisible, talking trees (ents), a flaming eye

I wasn't until I saw that fireball that I realized how much magic was in the movies that I took for granted and never even questioned. The fireball was just such sudden and obvious magic that it was obvious that it was not real.

I'm not saying that it was a bad choice on the part of PJ. It was nessisary to show Gandalf's domination over Saruman to a large audience. However I am saying that it is a bit of magic that does not really fit into Tolkien's world.