Boldogs, Gothmogs and Sauron's New Clothes

[obloquy]

Additionally, I think her ability to consume light is unusual enough for us to label her an enigma instead. This ability and hunger of hers puts her at odds with Arda, and furthers the point that her presence was unsanctioned by Eru.

An interesting thought but what are you basing it on?

I don't base it on anything, other than the fact that it's not addressed by Tolkien and therefore not said to be impossible. It would seem that the only thing that prevented the spirit from doing it itself was that it no longer possessed the power to do so.

[Neithan]

uh.. wots an eala ???

Ealar, singular Eala, are those bodyless spirits who were created befor Ea, of which the Ainur are one type.

Ainur (which may itself be an Arda-specific class of beings)

What? All I have to go on is the 77 Sil and the quotes that I have read on the Downs but the Sil says that the Ainur were created beforehand and that those who went into Arda were broken up into subgroups such as Valar and Maiar, but some of the Ainur stayed with Iluvatar.

[obloquy]

What? All I have to go on is the 77 Sil and the quotes that I have read on the Downs but the Sil says that the Ainur were created beforehand and that those who went into Arda were broken up into subgroups such as Valar and Maiar, but some of the Ainur stayed with Iluvatar.

Yeah, you're right about that. It is possible that the Ainur, even those who did not enter Arda, were made specifically for the creation and overseeing of Arda and that there were other classes of spirits. The point is just that we don't really know much about ealar.

[Formendacil]

Okay, I'll admit that I was going out a bit on a limb with Ungoliant...

Perhaps it would be wrong to call her a Maia, as such...

She is definitely an Ainu, though. There is no debating that all the spirits created by Eru in the beginning, in time for the Music, were the Ainur, and that all the spirits who came to Arda in the beginning of the world were, of necessity, Ainur.

Here's where I perhaps made my mistake, that of automatically classifying each and every Ainu who came to Arda as either a Vala or a Maia. This strategy would seem to be born out by the Valaquenta, but I'll admit that it might be more accurate to say that all the Ainur in Arda were ORIGINALLY classified as either Valar or Maiar, and that those who turned evil lost the designation. In any event, I am willing to admit that I could have been wrong in my application of the term.

Perhaps she wasn't a Maia, persay, but she MUST have been an Ainu. She must have been one of the those spirits who created the Music for Eru, or at least the offspring of such. What else can she have been?

And while the term Ainur is not really used in the context of the spirits attendant at the Music once they are in Arda, where the terms Valar, Maiar, Balrogs, Istari, etc. are more proper and correct, the fact remains that all of these must have in origin been Ainur.

[obloquy]

Why must she have been an Ainu?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Why must she have been an Ainu?

Process of elimination.

What ELSE could she have been?

Elf? No.

Man? Weren't even awake, but No anyway.

Dwarf? See above.

Ent? A tree that eats trees? No.

Ork? Maybe. But in spider shape? Besides, with Ainur thrown in, Orks would appear to be one of the above.

Fea-less creature: Only possibility left. However, it would seem apparent (at least to MY deranged imagination) that Ungoliant had thoughts and a fea.

What else is left?

Plant? Mineral?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

What ELSE could she have been?

How can we be sure that the list that you give is a complete list of all sentient beings within, or indeed without, Arda?

What about the Stone Giants that Bilbo sees in the Misty Mountains and Gandalf refers to?

What about the infamous fox that note the Hobbits' journey through the Shire?

They can be explained by putting them down to the fictional author's whimsy, but that is only one explanation.

And what about Huan, the Eagles and Shadowfax? Can we be sure that they were Maiarin in origin?

Moreover, Neithan's helpful (for me) explanation of Ealar indicates that there were spirits originating outside Arda who were not Ainur.

[Bêthberry]

On the other hand, Ungoliant could be a vague allusion to another character from deep back in the misty dawn of mythological lore. Who has uncontrolled appetites, who harbours a vile appearance, who is the epitome of disobedience and willfulness and even bestiality? No, not Eve, but Adam's first wife, lost in the nether reaches of time. Lilith. At least according to some of the versions of the legends we have. How to fit her into the Legendarium, of course, is another problem.

[Neithan]

Yes, I will try to find the quote that I based that Ealar assertion on.
SpM, glad I could help. If anyone wants more information on Ealar try here


Edit: I am having a hard time finding the quote. I don't have the book that it is from, but if memory serves than it was posted at one point during a Bombadil debate in order to say that he might be such a being. If anyone knows what quote I am talking about will they help me out?