Elves' Ears

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

[INDENT]2.1 In the first citation, Tolkien is making a comment on Hobbit ears, not Elvish. His only reference there to Elves is extremely indirect -- not only is he referring to them as elves (with a lower case 'e') he even puts them in quotation marks, which means that he is using the word not in its usual sense. Given that he always capitalises the Elves of his world, and that he never refers to them in such a backhanded manner ("The 'elves' of Lorien. . .") I can only conclude that in this letter he is referring to the elves of popular imagination: those pixie like spirits of the wood which have NO relation to the Elves created by Tolkien. (In letter 151 to Hugh Brogan, Tolkien wrote that he came to regret calling his folk Elves since it allied them too closely with these trivial figures of English myth.)

Perhaps he means to be referring to elves in the "normal" sense, like pixie-elves. My response to that would be that much of the art work (at least nowadays) of elves has them having huge pointed ears which stick out a foot from their heads. Like this dude: elf?. So perhaps in saying that his hobbits' ears were only slightly "elvish" Tolkien meant pointy, but not huge like the other elves.

...Just a thought...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Estelyn

However, after reading that quote (given by Fordim above) by Tolkien, I realized that he had actually stated the shape of their ears.

Actually, despite my use of those quotes to make my case, this question is, for me, answered on an instinctive level - like many Tolkien questions for which there is no definitive proof one way or the other. I always imagined Elves with pointed ears from the moment that I first read the books, And so that's the way it is for me. Had I imagined them without pointed ears, then my answer would have been "no", despite the evidence which I relied on in my earlier post (which I don't think provide definitive proof - although they are persuasive).

Now - off to the Balrog wings thread to give much the same response ...

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Fordim

That's a good point -- for Elves and humans to reproduce successfully, they would have to be the same species!

They might be, for all we know. But I believe they can still reproduce successfully if they are not of the same species. Look at the horse and the donkey. Or the members of the feline family.

Here's what my limited knowledge of Genetics led me to infer:
*Let EE=pointed ears, ee=rounded ears
Pointed ears could be a dominant trait (EE) exclusive to Elves, and Men possess the recessive gene (ee) to rounded ears. If two Elves procreate, their offspring would still have pointed ears (EE), no matter what (unless some freak-of-nature mutation occurs). A man and a woman would have a child with rounded ears (ee). But if a Man (EE) and an Elf (ee) reproduce, the resulting child would have the Ee genotype for ear shape. Due to the presence of a dominant allele E, the resulting phenotype would still be pointed - hence the Halfelves' pointed ears.

But if this is so, Elros should have had pointed ears (Ee). And since he married a human (ee), the Numenoreans should have had a variety of ear shapes (Ee and ee)! Maybe his choice of mortality came with free genetically-modified (rounded) ears, which he passed on to the Numenoreans. Aragorn has rounded ears, right?

This is much too confusing.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Just wanted to throw in the mix here that the Elves drawn by Tolkien in The Father Christmas Letters do not appear to have pointed ears. Actually, one doesn't see their ears at all. But I would tend to believe that if he felt very strongly that they did have such ears, he would have made some suggestion of it in these drawings. And I know some will argue that they are Red Elves, and really don’t figure in this discussion at all, but there you have it. He does call them 'Elves' not 'elves', though their stature is somewhat pixie-like.

In my own opinion I think that the Elves might have a very slight natural point on the inside ridge of the ear, similar to what can be seen in some humans. Just that it happens more frequently among Elves. I do not think it is unnaturally pronounced. Sort of like aquiline noses or Hapsburg jaws.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

They might be, for all we know. But I believe they can still reproduce successfully if they are not of the same species. Look at the horse and the donkey. Or the members of the feline family.

Quite right about the donkey, but remember -- donkey's are sterile. The textbook def'n of species (at least one part of it) is (searching memory back to first year bio) that they are able to produce off-spring capable of reproduction.

Elves and Men can have children together who then go on to have children -- ergo, the same species.

But like I said above, this does not settle the ear debate, since ear shape could easily have a lot of variation (in fact, it does in human populations: some of us have full lobes, others have lobes that are attached).

[Firefoot]

Just a little bit to add to Lhun's genetic reasoning:

Let's say you reverse it, so that rounded ears would be dominant (EE) and pointed ears are recessive (ee). That would mean that half-Elves would be "Ee" - rounded ears. This would mean that those who chose mortality could only have offspring with rounded ears because of the dominant allele (EE or Ee). So, all of Elros' descendents would have rounded ears, with the possible exception of Aragorn and Arwen's kids, because if by some strange chance Aragorn had an Ee genotype and Arwen did too some kids could have pointed ears - ee. The problem this would present would be for half-Elves who chose immortality - some of their offspring might have rounded ears with the genotype Ee - rounded ears.

[HerenIstarion]

Letters, 153 - to Peter Hastings

I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event

Lobes may be different, Fordim (also, donkeys are fertile, that's mule who's sterile ), but have you seen really and explicitly 'pointy' years? What would be the purpose? I suppose the 'outer' year - auricle, is some kind of a 'sound trap' - with the function of 'catching' and 'directing' the sound in. The pointed side has no biological function in the case, while lobes may have.

On the other hand, there is also:

Letters, 27 To the Houghton Mifflin Company

I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown).

But 'slightly' pointed is not what we've seen rubbed onto Arwen's ears in the movie. My friend has 'slightly' poinded ears, if you follow me, kind sirs and ladies.

cheers

[THE Ka]

I don't really know if they do, Maybe it's like with our ears, you know some have connecting lobes, some don't.

At least it's not like me and my dad. I have two different ears... one is slightly pointy and has no connecting lobe, the other is rounded on the top and has no connecting lobe. Also I have these weird bumps on the outer sides of my ears (My dad has this too.) Some nurse asked me if i had warts on my ears when I was at the doctor's office. Had to tell about the families' ear bumps...


~Ka~