Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[obloquy]

Tushie!!!

[Lindolirian]

I also think it's silly to think they would've given themselves functionless wings

True, but the teeth seen here have no functional prupose either. It's intimidation. If you were an angry form-changing demon, you'd give yourself wings just to look frightening too.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Allow me to be the first to point out that the machine upon which those teeth have been painted has wings that actually work, and that it can fly. . .

Hmmmm. . .I wonder. . .do balrogs have teeth?

[obloquy]

I think in general people make demons out to be much more beastly than they are. The extent of a fallen angel's carnality is stooping to the level of Man. We're not talking about a wild animal who'll bark and growl and roar and drool. Tolkien was very severe with Bakshi's version of the Bridge because Tolkien's intention was for the Balrog to maintain a dignified and sinister silence. There's no need for eye spots, or horns, or spikes, or scary wings. Durin's Bane was intimidating enough to even Gandalf when he had not even seen him yet.

Think about what we're talking about, folks. These are ancient, mighty fallen spirits, not guard dogs.

[mark12_30]

Well, since I can't exactly decide (and on some days don't care) I'm going to have to log on as an even number of alt-egos and vote myself into neutrality.

Or I guess I can just sit back and watch.

Either way, I'm enjoying the details of the discussion. "Ancient mighty spirits"-- nicely put, obloquy; quite a ring to it.

And about the "if he had wings why not fly back out of the chasm"-- maybe he had enough wind knocked out of him, or was just dizzy enough that he couldn't recover. These assumed bodies are pesky things, and I suspect they have a way of operating unexpectedly under duress.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Think about what we're talking about, folks. These are ancient, mighty fallen spirits, not guard dogs.

Okay, sorry to take this out on a not-so-necessary tangent, but guard dogs got me thinking.

What's the most fearsome guard dog in middle-earth? Carcharoth. Not exactly a Balrog, but not TOO far behind, and if we remember that he is a whelp of Draugluin, it would perhaps not be too improbable to say that he was at least part-Maia (aka supernatural) ancestry, above and beyond the power infused into him by Morgoth or by eating the Silmaril.

Which isn't to say that the Balrogs had guard dog status, by any means, but if you think about the way they do Morgoth's bidding unquestioningly, they certainly don't seem to be portrayed as particularly independent fellows.

Not that they aren't fearsome, and it really doesn't have much to say about their actual shape, but perhaps its worth noting that for all their terror, the Balrogs did the bidding, unquestioningly, of their master. Since they are said to be of the same general shape, it would seem wise therefore to assume that their looks were derived from a "Master" plan, to which they became bound thereafter (being of considerably lesser power than either Sauron or Morgoth, they would seem to have a much more limited potential for changing their shapes. And the more permanently attached to that shape, the less easy it would seem to be to change it. And the Balrogs would seem to have been pretty attached, in the end, to those shapes).

[Nimrodel_9]

How many times have we been through this? YES, balrogs had wings, but they were not used in flight. Perhaps some could fly, but I would say most couldn`t. That`s all I have to say.

Nimmy

[obloquy]

Good post, Formendacil.

It is true that Maiar could take the form of anything, not just humanoids, and frankly, I forgot about Huan when I posted above. He was originally conceived of by Tolkien as an incarnate Maia. If this is the case, he's an unusual example and I can't really explain it. It seems that Tolkien changed his mind about Huan's nature, however, in a note from Myths Transformed:

The same sort of thing may be said of Húan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fëar.

I know my accepting stance on that note contradicts previous posts of mine, but I now see a reason for Tolkien to come to the conclusion he did.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Just thought I would pass along to you all that I raised this issue with Mrs. Hedgethistle and she said, "Of course they have wings, you can see them right there in the movie!"

So that, as they say, is that.

*Fordim makes mental note to ask Mrs. Hedgethistle about Elves' ears*

[obloquy]

Again, I'll shamelessly hijack the thread: Elf ears, Man ears, and Hobbit ears are all "slightly pointed". It's canonical. Hobbit ears are directly said to be such by comparison to Elf ears, and it is well established in Tolkien's writings that Man and Elf were physiologically identical, to the point that they could only be distinguished from one another by the relative intensity of their eyes.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Lindolirian

It's intimidation.

What a brilliant and simple explanation! There are plenty of examples of animals who have some kind of physical techniques of increasing their size for that very purpose, so that seems very logical to me. And, since Morgoth was able to corrupt, but not create, maybe he never got the hang of making wings that were actually able to carry the Balrogs!

[Rilwen Gamgee]

I agree with Lindolirian's intimidation theory. The form of Balrogs' wings, as I invisioned them, were shadowy, but with form. Not possessing form enough to actually fly, but enough to frighten its...victim(s).

As many members and a few non-members repeated numerous times, somewhere in the FotR, Tolkien mentions shadows emerging from the Balrog like wings.

Please, whatever anyone wishes to think is great; I'm a believer in forming one's own visuals of characters, but I intend to stick fast to my imagination.

[the phantom]

You all seem to forget that Tolkien had an opinion about this.

From HoME XXVIII, part 3, subsection 2, draft C, entitled "questions I should've answered"-

I think that Balrogs could've had wings if they chose but didn't have wings so they couldn't fly but if they did they still couldn't fly unless they wanted to fly in which case they could but only if they had had wings but they didn't have wings since they couldn't fly.

I think that answers the question.

I'm not sure what the question is, though.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Fordim

So far, some of the really 'heavy hitters' have gone with the "no" side. I am delighted to see, however, that SaucepanMan has agreed with me on the "yes" side. Now if we can convince davem to weigh in on the topic, and if he votes "yes" as well, then we will have finally found something upon which [B]SpM, davem and I all agree.

Sorry, but I can't join my esteemed colleagues. I don't recall any mention of Balrog's wings in The Sil, of Balrog's flying (other than 'metaphorically' to Morgoth's aid). I do think they may have had pointy ears, though.

(If someone has already done that joke I'm sorry.....)

I think that Balrogs may or may not have had wings. They were still Ainur after all, and could change thier forms at will. In the Fellowship of the Ring, we are told that the shadow about the Balrog was LIKE wings. Later the wings are refered to as if they actually exist. This has been debated constantly among Pro wingers and Anti wingers. Keep in mind though, we are never told the nature of the Ainur's shape shifting. It may be that the Balrog of Moria didn't have wings at first, but on the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, it may have formed the shadow about it into wing like shapes, and later the shadow solidified into actual wings. So the Balrog basically adds wings to it's form. My theory is based on my belief that the Balrogs retained their ability to change shape, though. If someone can prove that they lost this ability, my point is voided.

As for whether or not they fly, I have no clue. Tolkien makes a point to say that Morgoth never learned the secret of flight, but remember in the story of Beren and Luthien, Sauron took a winged form and flew away. Not to mention Morgoth also managed to breed winged dragons too. However, being that Balrogs are Maiar, if they could fly, they certainly wouldn't need wings to do it. God I have no life.

[Evisse the Blue]

Originally Posted by the phantom

You all seem to forget that Tolkien had an opinion about this.

From HoME XXVIII, part 3, subsection 2, draft C, entitled "questions I should've answered"-

So then it's settled. They didn't.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Before I came to the Downs, I did not even realise that there was a debate about the wings. I was blithely and rather naively sure that they did have wings and was stunned to see such heated opinions on the matter.

This sums up entirely my own reaction to the issue. I recall that one of the things that I found most fascinating when I first came to the site (the main site that is - the discussion forum came later) was the fact that there were serious, intelligent and detailed articles concerning such matters. Not just whether Balrogs had wings, but also a couple of wonderful articles (by the esteemed Messrs Wight and Underhill) on the question of whether Olog-Hai were immune to the petrifying effects of sunlight. It had never really occurred to me to ponder such questions before.

By the time I came to the discussion forum, the issue had already been comprehensively argued with persuasive arguments both ways. So, although I am familiar with the arguments, I have never felt it necessary to weigh in with my opinions on the matter.

If I had to give a logical answer, I would say that Balrogs could not have had wings. It simply does not square with them being unable to fly when pitching down the various chasms that members of their order have fallen down. And I cannot see the point of them having flightless wings, especially in a world which does not presuppose evolution. And there are a variety of other ways in which they could have made their chosen forms intimidating.

But, as with many such questions, my ultimate reaction is not a logical one. Unless the issue is definitively proved one way or the other (and this one most certainly is not), I go with the conception that I formed when I first read the book. And, although it may well be a result of misinterpreting the "wings like shadows" reference, the Balrog of Moria most definately had wings when I first read the book. So, there we have it. Balrogs have wings.