Rings of Power & Osanwe-Kenta

[the phantom]

That he was unable to control the thoughts of the Elves is due to their own innate abilities, and they ‘saw’ what he was attempting to do.

He wasn't unable. They just took their rings off before he had the chance to do it.

The interesting thing is that while Melkor used his powers to control others by the use of the language, could Sauron have refined this method by somehow using the rings?

The question still remains as to how Sauron could best Melkor into finally achieving the fact that he could control the users of the Rings, even the 3 of the elves.

Here's some answers from HoME X, Myths Transformed-

Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate.

And this-

Thus, as 'Morgoth', when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, with other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence, and his only notion of dealing with them was by physical force, or the fear of it. His sole unltimate object was their destruction...Hence his endeavour always to break wills and subordinate them to or absorb them into his own will and being, before destroying their bodies. This was sheer nihilism...

And a bit later-

Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it.

And here's some more-

Sauron indeed achieved even greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done...And he proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage...

And finally-

Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, he remained less corrupt, cooler and more capable of calculation... While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice.... We may assume, then, that the idea of breeding the Orcs came from Melkor... The details of the accomplishment of this wickedness were, however, left mainly to the subtleties of Sauron.

Hope you enjoyed the quotes.

[Maédhros]

He wasn't unable. They just took their rings off before he had the chance to do it.

They? It was Celebrimbor who noticed that, and it was after that that he gave the rings away to Erenion and Galadriel.
And if Sauron was able to control the minds of the wearers, how is it that Celebrimbor reacted fast and took off the ring/rings? Perhaps it is a process that takes time.

It does beg the question of : was it the ring, or Saurons innate ability as a Maia that enabled his reimbodiment? Im not sure what canon has to say about that. IMO your right most def after the last Alliance. But IMO, the post Numenor destruction w/o the ring Sauron would have regained the same form as he was post Last Alliance with the ring. If that makes sense at all...

From Ósanwe-kenta

Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.
"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.
'The great Valar do not do these things: they beget not, neither do they eat and drink, save at the high asari, in token of their lordship and indwelling of Arda, and for the blessing of the sustenance of the Children. Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had dissipated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen. Even his visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed". (Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth. But the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded in the histories of the Elder Days, in the Lay of Leithian.)

We have no knowledge (at least as far as I know) as to how many times a maiar who has become incarnate can "reclothe" himself when his hröa is destroyed. We know that the balrogs once their hröa was destroyed they didn't reincarnate themselves again. Although there is the mention of the orc-captains. It is my personal opinion that when Sauron's hröa was destroyed in the Elendil/Erenion fight, that he could not have survived without the One Ring. To me it was an anchor that allowed him to reclothe himself in time.

From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

This last point was not well understood in the Elder Days. For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.

The footnote at this point, staring that 'Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War', and was perhaps not a personal name, is curious. Boldog appears several times in the Lay of Leithian as the name of the Orc-captain who led a raid into Doriath (references in the Index to The Lays of Beleriand); he reappears in the Quenta (IV.113), but is not mentioned thereafter. I do not know of any other reference to an Orc named Boldog,

[drigel]

Forgive me if this turns into a debate over semantics, but that reads as if Sauron did not need the ring to rehouse. Are you speculating that, after the Numenor incident, the ring was needed to keep his hroa in ME after the Last Alliance defeat?

My point was that w/o the ring, Sauron would have been able to rehouse after Numenor - but only as a spirit of malice, akin to as he was in LOTR. Thus a physical struggle at the Last Alliance would have been impossible.

[Maédhros]

Forgive me if this turns into a debate over semantics, but that reads as if Sauron did not need the ring to rehouse. Are you speculating that, after the Numenor incident, the ring was needed to keep his hroa in ME after the Last Alliance defeat?

My point was that w/o the ring, Sauron would have been able to rehouse after Numenor - but only as a spirit of malice, akin to as he was in LOTR. Thus a physical struggle at the Last Alliance would have been impossible.

Certainly in the story of Lay of Leithian Sauron's (Thû) hröa was destroyed and he was able to reclothe himself again, without the need for the Ring.
But the bigger question is: What is the Ring made of? Does the Ring has part of Sauron's "spirit" (power) in it?
I don't think that I'm explaining myself correclty to you. I'm not sayin that the Ring was needed to keep his hröa in ME. When his hröa is destroyed it remains destroyed, Sauron needs to use more of his power to reclothe himself. As this process repeats himself, Saruon looses more of his innate powers, ex. Balrogs who once destroyed couldn't reclothe themselves.

This is what I believe would have happened sooner to Sauron if he had not made the Ring:
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge – and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwë and Námo) that, though he had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.
In any case, in seeking to absorb or rather to infiltrate himself throughout 'matter', what was then left of him was no longer powerful enough to reclothe itself. (It would now remain fixed in the desire to do so: there was no 'repentance' or possibility of it: Melkor had abandoned for ever all 'spiritual' ambitions, and existed almost solely as a desire to possess and dominate matter, and Arda in particular.) At least it could not yet reclothe itself. We need not suppose that Manwë was deluded into supposing that this had been a war to end war, or even to end Melkor. Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life. The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed. The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatnes

It is my personal opinion but I think that without the Ring, Sauron would not have been able to be renew again and would have been a no factor in the TA.

The following was added marginally after the page was written:
If they do not sink below a certain level. Since no fëa can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is no[t] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a 'wicked' spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.

[drigel]

OK
Suffice to say there is a limited amount of (shall we say) capital, when it comes to rehousing - esp for a Maia. Thanks Maedros for the text! I love to pose questions which compels one to insert HOME quotes. hard to do for me at work

QUOTE]It is my personal opinion but I think that without the Ring, Sauron would not have been able to be renew again and would have been a no factor in the TA.[/QUOTE]

You are speaking about post Numenor, right? Or are you asserting that the post Melian encounter took so much out of S, that it tapped his reserves for any future reimbodiements?

But the bigger question is: What is the Ring made of? Does the Ring has part of Sauron's "spirit" (power) in it?

Excellent question. Perhaps a definition of what "it" is. Is the power to dominate other entities the same stuff as the ablity of a Maia to rehouse?

keep it up and thanks again!

[Maédhros]

Suffice to say there is a limited amount of (shall we say) capital, when it comes to rehousing - esp for a Maia. Thanks Maedros for the text! I love to pose questions which compels one to insert HOME quotes. hard to do for me at work

I'm at work too.

You are speaking about post Numenor, right? Or are you asserting that the post Melian encounter took so much out of S, that it tapped his reserves for any future reimbodiements?

I think that you mean Lúthien. I think that you get the point. We really have no way of knowing really. It is my opinion that Sauron could have reincarnated himself after the Númenor debacle (not for Sauron ofc) without the Ring but it is only a guess.

Melian is another matter altogether. Melian had been incarnated from a long time and she even had a child (Lúthien). I wonder if Melian travelled to Valinórë via a ship or if she returned to her true ëalar form.
My guess is that she transformed into her ëalar form and returned to Valinórë even thought it is stated that it would have been more difficult for her to do that but you might argue that because Thingol was slained the link that she had with him now that it was gone allowed her to do that.
I wonder if perhaps when Thingol was allowed release from the Halls of Mandos if Melian would have reincarnated herself in order to interact with Thingol.

Excellent question. Perhaps a definition of what "it" is. Is the power to dominate other entities the same stuff as the ablity of a Maia to rehouse?

I think that it has been already posted a while back.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate.

To me this means that he spent a part of his "ëalar" power not only in his ring but perhaps in the other ones except the 3.
I wonder if perhaps this is the reason as to why Celebrimbor was aware of Sauron's intentions?

[Neithan]

but you might argue that because Thingol was slained the link that she had with him now that it was gone allowed her to do that.

I'm confused. Are you saying that her link with Thingol is what bound her to her body, or are you saying that it is what allowed her to leave it. If the former, then I disagree. If Melian was bound to her body, then it was because of how she used her body not because of her link to Thingol. If you were saying the latter then I would say that it is a possability, but it is my opinion that when Thingol died her link to Middle Earth was severed and her link to her body went with it. Also there seem to be degrees of incarnation, Melian may have been incarnate to some extent, but certainly not as much as Sauron was.

To me this means that he spent a part of his "ëalar" power not only in his ring but perhaps in the other ones except the 3.
I wonder if perhaps this is the reason as to why Celebrimbor was aware of Sauron's intentions?

Sauron may well have had more to do with some of the Rings than teaching, but this quote could just be referring to the power Sauron used to bind the Rings together.
Unless I am mistaken the quote from the Sil posted earlier implied that it was not just Celebrimbor who was aware of him but all of the Elves that wore rings. I think that Sauron didn't realize that the link between the Rings would go both ways (although the One Ring was dominant) and so did not realize that the Elves would percieve him when he put on the Ring.

About Sauron reclothing himself, remember that he was not incarnate until after the destruction of Numenore. The Ealar's power was lessened after their bodies were destroyed even if they are not incarnate, but far more so if they are. The first time Sauron's body was destroyed he was hurt only a little. The second time was much worse, just like Morgoth he had done horrible evil and he had dispersed much of his power (the Ring). Also there was the weakening of his power due to his body being destroyed. This resulted in his becoming incarnate. So when the Last Alliance came there was a different story, this time he was incarnate and so became nothing more than an impotent (or nearly so) spirit (there is no record, that I can recall, of any Maia, other than Sauron, who came back after being "killed" in incarnate form, save maybe Gandalf, but he seems to have been a special case also). However, the Ring is what saved him, it "anchored" him so that, slowly, he was able to rebuild a body. Just as his Ring was his savior so it became his bane, for when it was destroyed his anchor was lost and so was he.

[the phantom]

And if Sauron was able to control the minds of the wearers, how is it that Celebrimbor reacted fast and took off the ring/rings?

Here's an illustration using tennis and Andy Roddick.

Andy Roddick can kick my butt in tennis. I'm on the court waiting for an opponent and Andy walks on. If I stay I'm going to get beat, so I run off the court and get in my car and drive home. He can most certainly beat me- I just never gave him the chance to engage me.

The same goes for the rings. In the Sil it says-

As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be the master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.

As you can see, the instant Sauron stepped onto the court they ran away, because they knew "he would be the master of them".

How long would it have taken? Maybe not long at all. Maybe all Sauron had to do was turn his attention towards them.