Celebrian's Misfortunes

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Really? I could imagine a lot of tortures worse than rape. Although I don't want to imagine them. .

You misunderstand me ..... I mean not that rape is necessarily the worst torture , but that if the orcs did " worse " and I a have no desire to create a hierachy of abuse (although having read survivors tales (eg Alice Sebold's "Lucky") then being abducted and raped, would figure fairly high if I did so...) then they would probably also have raped her ...... but Celebrian is such a thinly drawn character that it is hard to judge.

I have to say, that it always seemed a slightly thin plot device to get her out of the way... given the physical and mental strength of the elves I always wondered was Celebrian especially frail or if not ( and this seems unlikely given her lineage) the difference must be in the nature of the torment...

[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I have to say, that it always seemed a slightly thin plot device to get her out of the way... given the physical and mental strength of the elves.

I don't think so. If Tolkien had just wanted her out of the way, he could've killed her off just as easily. If not even easier, because a death, perhaps even an accident, would've been easier to explain and write about than the verbal tap-dance he did instead.

[The Saucepan Man]

I think that it's best if we steer clear of personal views on issues of morality and stick to the question at hand. Clearly, we can all agree that rape is an immoral act. The central issue is whether Tolkien, by the words he used (as referenced above), intended to imply that Celebrian was raped by the Orcs and/or whether they are capable of bearing such meaning.

This is an issue which needs to be discussed with the particular care and sensitivity which has (for the most part) characterised the debate so far. I suspect that getting into issues of personal morality will put that at risk so, as I said, let's just steer clear.