Elves' Ears

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

did Elros have pointy-ears that turned normal? Did Arwen? Did Elrond's ears get pointy?

This question reminds me of a thread some summers ago, concerning the extent of Tolkien's creationist theories.

Now, if we follow a creationist approach, there would be no change or evolution, so that the state of the half-elven ears would be determined at birth, or, rather, at conception. This would, though, impinge upon the free will of the half elven in deciding which way to go, assuming there would be a unity between the inner desire and the outer expression.

It's a mystery.


EDIT: Opps, cross-posting with The Barrow Wight.

[The Saucepan Man]

In the links which Mr Wight kindly gave there are two references to Elvish ears being pointed:

I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown). The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur. Clothing: green velvet breeches; red or yellow waistcoat; brown or green jacket; gold (or brass) buttons; a dark green hood and cloak (belonging to a dwarf). (Emphasis added)

A description of Bilbo in Letter #27 (March/April 1938)

and

LAS- *lasse leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, autumn, N lhasbelin (*lassekwelene), cf. Q Narqelion. Lhasgalen Greenleaf, Gnome name of Laurelin. (Some think this is related to the next and *lasse 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].) (Emphasis added)

From The Etymologies (in HoME V), dating from the late 1930s

These would seem to be the only published references to the shape of Elven ears, but do suggest that Tolkien conceived of them as pointed, at least in the late 1930s.

What's wrong with Half-Elves having pointed ears, anyway? Perhaps they were less pronounced than full-blood Elves.

[elfearz1]

This is *ahem* a subject very close to my heart

I don't have any real proof that they did have pointy ears. (Although I think saucepan man laid it out quite nicely) but I like to think they do have pointy ears, even if Tolkien never specifically said that they did. I think it just looks better and makes them more distinct from humans.

[Lalwendë]

What's wrong with Half-Elves having pointed ears, anyway? Perhaps they were less pronounced than full-blood Elves.

Perhaps they had one pointy ear and one non-pointy ear, much in the fashion of Bowie's differently coloured eyes?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown). The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur. Clothing: green velvet breeches; red or yellow waistcoat; brown or green jacket; gold (or brass) buttons; a dark green hood and cloak (belonging to a dwarf). (Emphasis added)

LAS- *lasse leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, autumn, N lhasbelin (*lassekwelene), cf. Q Narqelion. Lhasgalen Greenleaf, Gnome name of Laurelin. (Some think this is related to the next and *lasse 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].) (Emphasis added)

Thanks to the links provided above by the Wight, I saw these citations in the other threads. For me, at least, they do not really put the final nail in the pointy-ear coffin.

1. If these really are the only direct references to pointy-ears, then that's pretty slender evidence to hang such an important feature on.

2. I find them rather uncompelling in their own rights:

2.1 In the first citation, Tolkien is making a comment on Hobbit ears, not Elvish. His only reference there to Elves is extremely indirect -- not only is he referring to them as elves (with a lower case 'e') he even puts them in quotation marks, which means that he is using the word not in its usual sense. Given that he always capitalises the Elves of his world, and that he never refers to them in such a backhanded manner ("The 'elves' of Lorien. . .") I can only conclude that in this letter he is referring to the elves of popular imagination: those pixie like spirits of the wood which have NO relation to the Elves created by Tolkien. (In letter 151 to Hugh Brogan, Tolkien wrote that he came to regret calling his folk Elves since it allied them too closely with these trivial figures of English myth.)


2.2 As to the citation from the HoME, there's all kinds of reasons for me to be unconvinced by it. First, who are these "gnomes" he's talking about? Second, the association between the word 'leaf' and the word for 'ear' is made in a very tenuous manner: "some think." Finally, the final word appears to be an assumption by the editor insofar as it is in parantheses with a question mark. This can only mean that the writing was not completed or that word is indecipherable -- in which case we don't really know what Tolkien meant in this throwaway line. And if the comparison in ear shape is not between Elves and Men, then how can we really draw any definitive conclusions about it?

Against these rather vague and uncompelling descriptions of Elf-ears I would hold up the much longer descriptions of Elves in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings (in particular, the description of the Elves in the Appendices) in which no mention is made of pointed ears whatsoever. Why would he reserve such a crucial distinction between the races for one letter and an illegible note in some rough drafts for an unpublished work??

Even among his unpulbished works (during his lifetime) the descriptions of Elves are remarkably devoid of pointy-ears. Nowhere in the Sil or UT do we hear that Elvish ears are anything special or different from our own. In fact, in another letter (#144 to Naomi Mitchison, who was proof-reading the typescript of LotR and so, presumably, Tolkien would want her to get it right) Tolkien describes his Elves:

They are represented as a race similar in appearance (and more so the further back) to Men, and in former days of the same stature.

Just checked in the mirror: I don't have pointy-ears, so I figure anyone "similar in appearance" to myself wouldn't either!

Guess that's settled now.

For my next trick, I'll prove that Balrogs had wings.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, you have put up a spirited fight, Professor, but I do think that you dismiss the two pieces of "pro-pointy ear" evidence that we have rather lightly.

The first tells us that Tolkien considered the adjectives "pointed" and "elvish" to be equivalent in connection with the description of ear shape. The capital 'E' is not used for "elvish" because he is using it as an adjective to describe a feature rather than a race. This also explains the use of quotation marks. He might similarly have said "hobbitish" in connection with the description of feet when intending to indicate them as hirsute. The point for me, though, is that his conception of the word "elvish" is one that involves pointed ears, so it is likely that he thought of his own Elves in this way, however different they were in other respects form the Elves of popular folklore.

The second shows us that there is clearly a close association between the Quenyan words for leaf and ear. Why would this be if there was not an actual association, most likely a physical resemblance, between the two things, both in the "fictional reality and in Tolkien's mind"? And the association can be made without regard to the speculation in brackets which, in a way, merely confirms the obvious (the relationship). This suggests to me that the "original" Elves (who spoke Quenya) had pointed ears. This may have changed over time, but this seems unlikely - and the quote that you have provided suggests that Elves became less Man-like over time rather than moreso.

As for the lack of any description of Elves' ears other than these references, well Tolkien was not really one for giving physical descriptions of his characters (as opposed to landscapes), in his published works at least, unless this was necessary for the story. The reason for the description of Bilbo Baggins in Letter #27 is because there is very little in the way of a physical description of him in The Hobbit - so much so, in fact, that there was a popular conception around the time that it was published that they were similar in appearance to rabbits! There is, as I recall, scant description of the appearance of Elves in either The Hobbit or LotR. Such that there is relates mainly to their beauty (a general term) and their hair colour (and Tolkien didn't even accord his main Elven character in the latter book, Legolas, that detail).

Tolkien's reference, in Letter #144, to Elves resembling Men in appearance does not, to my mind, in any way preclude pointed ears. I would describe Vulcans as being similar in appearance to Men, although there are obviously features which distinguish them. Moreover, ear shape varies considerably among humans and some can be quite "pointed".

Nevertheless, while I imagine Elves as having pointed ears (and have done since I first read the book), and I believe that the evidence points to Tolkien imagining them in the same way, the lack of any solid evidence in any published "final" story certainly allows ample scope for people to believe otherwise, should they so wish.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

All right -- I've decided we shall settle this in the only way I know how: democratically!

I've attached a poll to this thread so, having read through the arguments everyone get up there and weigh in on this heated issue.

It's your chance to have a hearing.

EDIT Hmmm. . .only been up for ten minutes and already we're tied at one vote apiece.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

2.2 As to the citation from the HoME, there's all kinds of reasons for me to be unconvinced by it. First, who are these "gnomes" he's talking about?

Fordie, you CANNOT be serious. Say it ain't so. You DO know that the original name for the Noldorin was "Gnomes." You knew that. Of course you knew that.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

You knew that. Of course you knew that.

Well. . .yes. . .of course, of course. . .of course I knew that. . .known it for a long time. . .testing you all, that's what I was doing. Yes. . .testing you. Of course I knew that. . .who woudn't?. . .I mean that would be just silly, not knowing that. . .got you though, didn't I? I had you really going there for a moment. . .heh heh.

*shuffles papers*

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

[INDENT]2.1 In the first citation, Tolkien is making a comment on Hobbit ears, not Elvish. His only reference there to Elves is extremely indirect -- not only is he referring to them as elves (with a lower case 'e') he even puts them in quotation marks, which means that he is using the word not in its usual sense. Given that he always capitalises the Elves of his world, and that he never refers to them in such a backhanded manner ("The 'elves' of Lorien. . .") I can only conclude that in this letter he is referring to the elves of popular imagination: those pixie like spirits of the wood which have NO relation to the Elves created by Tolkien. (In letter 151 to Hugh Brogan, Tolkien wrote that he came to regret calling his folk Elves since it allied them too closely with these trivial figures of English myth.)

Perhaps he means to be referring to elves in the "normal" sense, like pixie-elves. My response to that would be that much of the art work (at least nowadays) of elves has them having huge pointed ears which stick out a foot from their heads. Like this dude: elf?. So perhaps in saying that his hobbits' ears were only slightly "elvish" Tolkien meant pointy, but not huge like the other elves.

...Just a thought...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Estelyn

However, after reading that quote (given by Fordim above) by Tolkien, I realized that he had actually stated the shape of their ears.

Actually, despite my use of those quotes to make my case, this question is, for me, answered on an instinctive level - like many Tolkien questions for which there is no definitive proof one way or the other. I always imagined Elves with pointed ears from the moment that I first read the books, And so that's the way it is for me. Had I imagined them without pointed ears, then my answer would have been "no", despite the evidence which I relied on in my earlier post (which I don't think provide definitive proof - although they are persuasive).

Now - off to the Balrog wings thread to give much the same response ...