Ruin of Doriath - Attack on Menegroth

[Findegil]

Posted by Maédhros:

I have to agree with that. But I still maintain my point that Melian leaves Menegroth to Ossiriand in order to warn Beren and Lúthien as to what happened in Menegroth.

Agreed, and that is exactly what our §40c does say.

Regarding your changes in §40a and §40c:
I could not find any change introduced by you in §40a. Please explain what you meant to change.
In §40c I found an error in my editing which I have corrected (bad idea I know, sorry) (The halfe sentence "{ and Gwendelin went forth from the places of her abode{and}" must not be added, if we are going to delet it, and the "{" before RD-SL-23 had slipt in unintentionly.)
To make things cleraer I will give my text here in plain text

§37b (§21) Now when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns grew faint in the deep forest, but Melian sat in her bower and foreboding was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And Melian said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in Doriath are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose Thingol then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady Melian, hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems the threads are riven and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian.

§38 (§22) Then Melian departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath was ravaged by the Dwarves. Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and there was a cry about the doors of the Thousand Caves, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise by the clash of steel. Then a sudden multitude of Naugrim held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.

§39 (§23) Then those few guards that remained and had fared not to the hunt valiantly warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.

§40a (§24) Then did those Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure. And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of Thingol crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs of Morgoth plunder, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady Melian Queen of Doriath shall fare with me.’

§40c (§26) Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for she had long fled and when then pursuer came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other. And so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand. But Queen Melian went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien, and her bitter weeping filled the forest.

Reading it thus I find the break between §37b and §38 a bit hard. Maybe we should try to do it better. What follows is a more riscy editing:

§37b (§21) RD-EX-60 Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow} grew faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits} sat in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word >RD-EX-61b <Sil77 {But now} Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian.>RD-EX-61.1 <TN Then did {Gwendelin}[Melian] see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of {Artanor}[Doriath], and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; >and RD-EX-61.2<TN {Then}[she] did{ Gwendelin} know well that her foreboding was true, and that {treachery}[doom] had found her realm at last>. RD-EX-61.3<TN Then went {Gwendelin}[Melian] unafraid forth from her bower,> RD-EX-61.4<TN yet did she hearten those few guards that remained {to her}[in Menegroth] and had fared not to the hunt>RD-EX-61.5 <Q30 RD-SL-23 {Queen Melian the Dwarves could not seize or harm}, and she went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien{.}> RD-EX-65.5 <TN , and her bitter weeping filled the forest.>

§38 (§22) <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Then}When Melian {departs}departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}was ravaged by the Dwarves.> {, and the fortress of the Thousand Caves taken at unawares and plundered;} RD-EX-62b <Sil77 Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and >RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...} by the clash of steel. RD-EX-63.5Then {went Gwendelin unafraid forth from her bower, and behold,} a sudden multitude of {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Naugrim] held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.>

§39 (§23) RD-EX-64b <TN Then {did Gwendelin know well that her foreboding was true, and that treachery had found her realm at last, yet did she hearten }those few guards{ that remained to her and had fared not to the hunt, and} valiantly{ they} warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.>

§40a (§24) RD-EX-65b <TN Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure>. RD-EX-65.1 <TN And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then RD-EX-65.2{did Gwendelin see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Artanor, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but} Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’>

§40c (§26) RD-EX-65.3 <TN Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for {as they}<editorial aditon she had long gone and when then pursuing Dwarves> came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other>. So{so} was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand.

In plain Text this reads:

§37b (§21) Now when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns grew faint in the deep forest, but Melian sat in her bower and foreboding was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And Melian said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in Doriath are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose Thingol then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady Melian, hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems the threads are riven and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Then did Melian see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Doriath, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; and she did know well that her foreboding was true, and that doom had found her realm at last. Then went Melian unafraid forth from her bower, yet did she hearten those few guards that remained in Menegroth and had fared not to the hunt, and she went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien, and her bitter weeping filled the forest.

§38 (§22) When Melian departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath was ravaged by the Dwarves. Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and there was a cry about the doors of the Thousand Caves, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise by the clash of steel. Then a sudden multitude of Naugrim held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.

§39 (§23) Then those few guards valiantly warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.

§40a (§24) Then did those Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure. And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of Thingol crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs of Morgoth plunder, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady Melian Queen of Doriath shall fare with me.’

§40c (§26) Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for she had long gone and when then pursuing Dwarves came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other. So was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand.

I hope the plain text may bring some clearness.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-51:

Findegil wrote:

Are you sure that "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." is what you want? I would at least add a "now" after the "and"

I don't see a need for the extra "now".

RD-SL-20:

I was talking about this:

… could any such come thither RD-SL-20 {unaided by treachery from within}.>

Our removal of the treachery of the Elves in actual fact does not necessitate the removal of this hypothetical talk of the Dwarves.

RD-EX-58

Findegil wrote:

Wouldn't that mean that the dwarves assembled at the borders of Doriath when the first sentence is true, thus more than a month before the hunt?

It seems to me that the account is sufficiently compressed here that no precise chronology is implicated by our revision. In any case, if there were a problem, the addition of "at this time" surely would not solve it.

But is the lose of "Somehow" wanted? I think we should retain it. It the clearest statment that we do not know, even more that Tolkien did not know. If we skip it it reads as if we do simple not tell, not indicating at all if we know how they did it or not.

Well, "somehow" is the crux of the awkwardness, I think. We can either delete it to obtain something like good prose or retain it for the sake of ambiguity and accept that it reads poorly.

Actually, though, I don't really see "somehow" as doing any canonical or story-line work. What is the difference between "they contrived it" and "somehow they contrived it"? If "they contrived it" then clearly "somehow they contrived it". And why should it be so important that we indicate to the reader that we do not know the precise manner of the contrivance? I see nothing wrong with simply stating that "they contrived it" and nothing more.

The problem I see with removing "somehow" is another one - specifically, it seems to me to be a stylistic revision, and that is something we have specifically decided not to engage in. Yet we have already accepted minimal emendations that are surely stylistic; and clearly the sentence as we have it is not something Tolkien would have let stand in a narrative.

So in the end I lean toward my former proposal, removing "somehow".

Findegil wrote:

Here at least we have the change. It seems Melian first did depart and then the Dwarves saked Menegroth. Since the note is to be taken we have to change my text

Yes, I think you are right.

RD-EX-60

Findegil wrote:

If we write "Now was the king far in the woods with all his company,. ..." we would jump back in the timeline without a clear indication. I think we need at least "Now {is} when the king was far in the woods with all his company, ..."

I don't see a problem with "Now was the king far in the woods with all his company . . ."; I think it is clear from the context that we are moving back to Menegroth and back to a time before Thingol's death.

But I do see now (looking at TN) that we are making a jump backward in time that is not made in the original. So if you and Maedhros feel that the "wehn" is necessary, I can accept it.

RD-EX-63

Findegil wrote:

Sorry, I can't see your point here. The "cry" that grew to "a firece noise by the clash of steel" did not strike me as grammaticaly bad, other than that a cry does not grew by additional noises. But any way you are more likely to know your gramma then I am. so if you want a change we will make one, but the change of "by" -> "of" is very awakward, in my view by the duplication of "of" in such a short distance.

The problem is the preposition. I have no problem with a cry growing to a fierce noise, because of the clash of steel. But "by" is the wrong word (and note that Tolkien did not use "by" in this way; the deletion of the illegible words results in a grammatical problem). We could say "grew to a fierce noise by reason of the clash of steel" or ". . . with the clash of steel" if you prefer either of those to ". . . of the clash of steel" (and as a matter of fact I suspect that either of those options preserves the intended meaning better than "of").

§40b

Findegil wrote:

In the original this is addressed for the Orcs in Naugladurs host. They are gone in our version. But what I tried was to hold the sentence but change its meaning, so that now Naugladur reffers to the destroied relam of Doriath that he would leaf behind for the Orks of Morgoth to play with. Naugladur is here in a subtle way boasting that he had brought about the Ruin of Doriath that Morgoth could not accomplished in all the long wars of Beleriand.

And Maedhros:

I agree with this.

I'm afraid I still don't. Not to be petulant, but "to hold the sentence but change its meaning" is exactly what I'm against. I made a point (long ago) in the principles debate of specifying not only that we are not to alter Tolkien's words but also that we are not to alter their meaning. Now this particular situation is a minor one, but I think it's an important point, particularly in principle. In TN Naugladur says that what remains of goods or folk may be plundered by the rest of his host as they please. That is the total of the meaning of his statement. He does not in the original boast that he has brought the end of Doriath that even Morgoth could not accomplish. To put such an implication in our version is to invent a fact.

In most cases, it is the deletion of a piece of text that brings it away from Tolkien's intention, and that's why it's normally advisable to keep as much as we can. But we see that in cases like this one, the retention of the text brings it away from Tolkien's intention, because though the words are retained, their meaning is altered.

That's why I want to delete the reference to the Orcs.

About names:

Naugladur can surely stand.

Nielthi: I'm not sure what the etymology of this would be, but at least there are no phonological problems that I'm aware of. It can stand.

Bodruith: I remember now my objection to the name. According to "Names in the Lost Tales" in II, GL glosses "bodruith" as "revenge". Christopher Tolkien speculates (quite plausibly, I think) that the Lord of Belegost received this name as a result of his actions in TN. Since this part has been removed from our version, I would drop the name.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-51:
If you say the sentence is grammatically okay I can accept that with some reluctance. In that case every thing we would do seems to be an stylistic change. But the awkwardness of the sentence was, in my view at least, brought about by our deletions. Wouldn't it be possible to change the word order: "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and he did{ he} jeer at them mightily on their return, ..."
For me that sounds much more natural.

RD-SL-20:
I have accepted that we do not use any treason by elves from Doriath, but with this phrase we would turn the story to its head. Do you agree with me, that based on the sources we have JRR Tolkien denied the possibility that treason would overcome the girdle?
Now what you suggest, would mean that the Dwarves did see a chance to over come the girdle of Melian if they could have found a traitor from Doriath. This believe of the Dwarves would not be gainsaid in our text at all. The simplest interpretation of such an text would be, that the Dwarves did not find a traitor. This would deny even the possibility of treason among the Sindar as the story goes.
In my view that would makes the story to explicit.

RD-EX-58:
Posted by Aiwendil:

It seems to me that the account is sufficiently compressed here that no precise chronology is implicated by our revision.

Okay, if it doesn't create that picture in your mind the addition might be overdone. We will skip it.

§37a:
Posted by Aiwendil:

Well, "somehow" is the crux of the awkwardness, I think. We can either delete it to obtain something like good prose or retain it for the sake of ambiguity and accept that it reads poorly.

I feared it was like this. I don't see that the deletion of "somehow" is a prohibited stylistic change. We are dealing with a note that as it is, as your rightly observed, was never meant to form a part of any narrative. Thus if it would by a change not concealing some of the meaning of the note I would accept the deletion of somehow.
Tolkien surely would not have used the words as they stand now, but it is more than likely that he would have device the way by which the dwarves managed to lure Thingol outside the girdle, if ever he had written the story. But we are not Tolkien and we will not device that way. Thus, as it is, we are left only with the statement that nobody (not even Tolkien, who without any doubt had the greatest knowledge of all about Middle-Earth) did know the "how". I think that we should make that clear, and in my view the least we should do, is stick to that "somehow". If you find that better we could expand it like this:

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms.{ and Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}/No tale tells how they/ contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders{ and is there slain by the Dwarves.}>, RD-SL-22 <TNbut there the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. ...

Concerning Melians departure:
Okay, so we all agree that she must leave before the dwarves attack. It would be nice to hear if you both do agree with my second version of that story given in post #11 at the end.

RD-EX-60:
I at least feel a strong desire to introduce that "when".

RD-EX-63:
Okay, you took a different view to the sentence. Now at long last, I see your problem. I the problem I have is that with your options the growing cry becomes more strange to me. What if we try to find a word to fit the lacunae? I suggest: "But the Dwarves held on their way, and >RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise {...}enforced by the clash of steel."

§40:
Good arguments. I agree, that in view of them we should skip the Orcs. Thus we will get:

... Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and{ whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs keep, or slay, as they desire. Yet} the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’

About the names:
Naugladur: That's nice.

Nielthi: Do we need an etymology for each and every name we want to hold?

Bodruith: Agreed he is skipped out of our version.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-51

Findegil wrote:

But the awkwardness of the sentence was, in my view at least, brought about by our deletions. Wouldn't it be possible to change the word order: "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and he did{ he} jeer at them mightily on their return, ..."
For me that sounds much more natural.

Are you sure that the awkwardness was introduced by our change? I don't see how "and did he jeer at them mightily on their return" is more awkward than "and did Fangluin jeer at them mightily on their return". But it's a minor point, and I'm certainly willing to go with your suggestion if you are adamant.

RD-SL-20

We ought to try to be clear about this. Why did we delete the element of the treachery? I can think of two possible reasons:

1. In the later legendarium, Elvish treachery would not be sufficient to bypass the Girdle.

2. In the later legendarium, Elvish treachery is impossibly unlikely.

I had thought that our justification for the change was 2. If this is the case, then nothing has altered the fact that Elvish treachery would overcome the Girdle, and so the hypothetical statement would be fine.

But perhaps it is not so clear that reason 2 was our justification. If 1 is also a concern, then I agree that the line should be dropped.

§37a

I must say again that I don't see the "somehow" as doing any good for us. Your expanded proposal ("No tale tells . . .") is better in that regard. But I wonder whether it's going too far - besides the fact that it alters the text, it invents the fact that no tale tells more of the luring of Thingol outside the Girdle. But surely the full tale of the Necklace of the Woe of Thingol does give a full account.

Okay, so we all agree that she must leave before the dwarves attack. It would be nice to hear if you both do agree with my second version of that story given in post #11 at the end.

I don't see a real problem between §37b and §38, but your proposed changes bring in more detail from TN and thus are good, I think. But there is a grammatical problem with:

<HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Then} When Melian {departs} departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}was ravaged by the Dwarves.>

We could perhaps make it:

<HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Then} Thus Melian {departs} departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}was ravaged by the Dwarves.>

RD-EX-63

If I understand what you intend, would perhaps this work:

RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise[,] {...} strengthened by the clash of steel.

I think that "enforced" is not the right word, but I think this may be what you had in mind.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-51:
The Original sentence reads "Yet now did Fangluin jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." and this clearly is less awkward then "... and did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." or not. Our changes were made to in cooperate the descriptive introduction of Fangluin the aged with his action at the return of the smiths. After reading again the original, I think we should use "...and now did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." It is even nearer to the original than to leave out the "now". Is that a way we are all happy with?

RD-SL-20:
It took use a long time to workout that difference in the reasons for leaving the treacherous Elves out!
Reason 1 is the only valid point in my view. If treachery would have been sufficient to bypass the Girdle, then I do not see why JRR Tolkien would have felt any need to change the story at all. Treachery of Elves by Elves was one of the things spoken of in the prophecy of the north and Thingol had enmeshed himself and his realm in the doom of the Noldor by taking the Silmaril. Thus I don't think it is in any way impossible for the Elves of Doriath to be treacherous. Thus I still think the line should be dropped.

§37a:
Point taken. “No tale tells …” is to much writing our point of view into the story. On the other hand it is really true: There was never a tale written that did tell this “how”. What about a clearer statement of the Narrator: “In these later days it is not known how …”? But I don’t think that will do. In the end if you are adamant on skipping the “somehow” I can go with that, since the passage will clearly be discussed at length in the Appendix to this chapter. And there we can much clearer say what we could only hint at in the text, that Tolkien never wrote down how he envisaged the luring of the dwarves and possibly never made up his mind about that point.

Concerning Melians departure:
If you agree to it we will take my second proposal.
Then Melian departed -> Thus Melian departed: Agreed.

RD-EX-63:
“enforced” was only the best I could find, which was not good in itself. “strengthened” is okay for me.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-51

I think that perhaps I misread the original. The deletion of "Yet now" does seem to make it more awkward. We can use " . . . and now did he jeer at them mightily on their return".

RD-SL-20

It seems the point was clear in your mind, then; but it is not so to me. I wonder what Maedhros thinks. In any case, I don't think that the prophecy of the North has such bearing on the Sindar; it foretold treachery among the Noldor, not among all Elves.

§37a

"No tale tells": is it really true? It is externally - that is, no text written by Tolkien gives us the proper tale. But if we make the statement in the text, its purport is internal. That is, it would assert that no tale written in Arda tells how the Dwarves contrived the luring of Thingol. This is not likely to be true, considering the existence of the Atanatarion.

[Findegil]

RD-SL-20:
Yes it would be good to have a third minds input here, I think. But I like to add, that it is the safer way in view of canon to skip hypotetical possibility to ofercome the girdle by treason.

§37a:
I am aware of the problem of internal statment made on an external fact. Therefore my suggestion in the last post. But as said there already, in view of an appendix talking about the external problems we had with the §, I can live with loosing the "somehow". Thus we should take:

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms and {Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be}for they contrived it that Thingol {is} was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}> RD-SL-22 <TN the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. ...

FD-SL-19:
This was the message of the Death of Mîm that did increase the wrath of the Naugrim. This point gnawed at me since we settled our discussion on it with the decision to skip any mention of it. I did recently reread the passage that Aiwendil and Maedhros used against it, and I will give it here to anyone to read:

The Petty-dwarves. See also Note 7. The Eldar did not at first recognize these as Incarnates, for they seldom caught sight of them in clear light. They only became aware of their existence indeed when they attacked the Eldar by stealth at night, or if they caught them alone in wild places. The Eldar therefore thought that they were a kind of cunning two-legged animals living in caves, and they called them Levain tad-dail, or simply Tad-dail, and they hunted them. But after the Eldar had made the acquaintance of the Naugrim, the Tad-dail were recognized as a variety of Dwarves and were left alone. There were then few of them surviving, and they were very wary, and too fearful to attack any Elf, unless their hiding-places were approached too nearly. The Sindar gave them the names Nogotheg 'Dwarflet', or Nogoth niben 'Petty Dwarf'.
The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, who were (it is said) the descendants of Dwarves who had left or been driven our from the Communities, being deformed or undersized, or slothful and rebellious. But they still acknowledged their kinship and resented any injuries done to them. Indeed it was one of their grievances against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there. This grievance was set aside, when treaties were made between the Dwarves and the Sindar, in consideration of the plea that the Petty-dwarves had never declared themselves to the Eldar, nor presented any claims to land or habitations, but had at once attacked the newcomers in darkness and ambush. But the grievance still smouldered, as was later seen in the case of Mîm, the only Petty-dwarf who played a memorable part in the Annals of Beleriand.
The Noldor, for use in Quenya, translated these Sindarin names for the Petty-dwarves by Attalyar 'Bipeds', and Pikinaukor or Pitya-naukor.

Noe 7: The Dwarves were in a special position. They claimed to have known Beleriand before even the Eldar first came there; and there do appear to have been small groups dwelling furtively in the highlands west of Sirion from a very early date: they attacked and waylaid the Elves by stealth, and the Elves did not at first recognize them as Incarnates, but thought them to be some kind of cunning animal, and hunted them. By their own account they were fugitives, driven into the wilderness by their own kin further east, and later they were called the Noegyth Nibin or Petty-dwarves, for they had become smaller than the norm of their kind, and filled with hate for all other creatures. When the Elves met the powerful Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, in the eastern side of the Mountains, they recognized them as Incarnates, for they had skill in many crafts, and learned the Elvish speech readily for purposes of traffic. At first the Elves were in doubt concerning them, believing them to be related to Orcs and creatures of Morgoth; but when they found that, though proud and unfriendly, they could be trusted to keep any treaties that they made, and did not molest those who left them in peace, they traded with them and let them come and go as they would. They no longer classed them as Moerbin, but neither did they ever reckon them as Celbin, calling them the Dornhoth ('the thrawn folk') or the Naugrim ('the stunted people').

The arrgument against the use of the Mîm's death as a further grievence to the dwarves was the passage "The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, ..." But what bothers me now is this passage "But the grievance still smouldered, as was later seen in the case of Mîm, ..." The grievance refered to is clearly that between the Great Dwarves and the Sindar and not that of the Petty-Dwarves against the Sindar. Thus what else can be meant by this passage other than that the death of Mîm brought back that grievance only laid at rest and never really healed and thus added to the wrath of the Dwarves of Nogrod against Thingol?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Tar-Telperien]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Nielthi: I'm not sure what the etymology of this would be, but at least there are no phonological problems that I'm aware of. It can stand.

This name does not "fit" into later Sindarin for me, and I managed to find out why: after scrolling through my Dragon Flame Sindarin dictionary, I discovered that the only multisyllabic Sindarin words ending in -i are those which have the adjectival ending -ui or verb stems that have been conjugated into the infinitive (e.g. giri 'to shudder'). Otherwise, -i does not appear at all. The consonant cluster -lth- is pretty rare too, although it does occur in a couple verb stems.

Even so, the problem of final -i in mature Sindarin is enough to cause the name to be entirely dropped in my opinion, especially in the case of such a minor character whose name is only used a couple times. I very much doubt that Nielthi's name was intended to be the infinitive form of a verb *nielth-, which is the only thing it could be in Sindarin as later envisioned by Tolkien.

An adjective form Nielthui might work, but this would be rather pointless: the name, while working with the morphophonology of later Sindarin, would be changed unnecessarily from the original, and its meaning wouldn't be at all clear. But if you want to retain it, I believe that is the only way it could be done. Again, better to just eliminate it altogether.

[Findegil]

What you suggests, Tar-Telperien, is:

§311 (§37b) RD-EX-60 Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow}grew faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sat in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid{, Nielthi}: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But {Nielthi}the Elfmaid said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ ...

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Tar-Telperien]

Yes, I do suggest that. It works well enough, better than an obsolete Sindarin name.

[Aiwendil]

I also can find no Sindarin names ending in -i (after an admittedly quick search). I suppose there's sufficient doubt about the name, then, that it should be excised.

[Findegil]

Okay, this point is done.

Thanks for the good catch Tar-Telperien!

Respectfully
Findegil