LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 04 - Treebeard

[davem]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Treebeard seeing that the Ents are fading away, and will eventually fade away, fears that Ents will be forgotten. That is if the Ents sit back and did nothing. Ahh, but if he helps the other people, then perhaps they may be remembered yet.

Very interesting point - this desire to be remembered, to continue in the 'Tale' ...(Following on from my last post, a few more thoughts on the nature of Ents: )

"We are tree-herds, we old Ents. Few enough of us are left now. Sheep get like shepherds, and shepherds like sheep, it is said; but slowly, and neither have long in the world. It is quicker and closer with trees and Ents, and they walk down the ages together. For Ents are more like Elves: less interested in themselves than Men are, and better at getting inside other things’.. And yet again Ents are more like Men, more changeable than Elves are, and quicker at taking the colour of the outside, you might say. Or better than both: for they are steadier and keep their minds on things longer.

‘Ents are more like Elves: less interested in themselves than Men are, and better at getting inside other things’.

Are Elves less interested in themselves than Men? When did that happen? The Elves of the First Age certainly couldn’t be said to be uninterested in themselves. If Treebeard is right this must be something that has happened to the Elves of Middle earth over time. And yet to what extent have they grown uninterested in themselves? Their chief concern seems to be departing into the West, leaving Middle earth forever. This does not seem to imply a lack of self interest. In fact, the Elves of Lorien in particular seem pretty much self obsessed, with not much interest in the outside world, or anything but their living dream.

Again, what does he mean when he says that Men are more changeable, quicker at taking on the colour of the outside - in fact, [i]what is that supposed to mean when its at home? ‘Taking on the colour of the outside’? does it mean that Men are too swayed by ‘surfaces’, by image, or that they are more prone to be swept along by ‘fashions’ & trends, carried along by the crowd, the concerns of the moment?

And does this give any insight into Treebeard’s words about the Elves? Does he mean that Elves are not concerned with themselves as a power, a force for change & domination within Middle earth any longer? Elves are no longer thinking of themselves as having a role in Middle earth. They have turned inwards, focussed on their individual destinies, not on the destiny of Middle earth. That role has passed to Men. Yet Treebeard’s judgement of Men’s new role doesn’t seem too high. The Elves have succumbed & accepted their destiny, but they are not up to it apparently, as far as Treebeard is concerned. They will probably make a mess of things.

In his opinion (understandably perhaps) the Ents are better than Elves or Men. They are more consistent than the Elves - they ‘have their feet on the ground’ (or in it), - & are less fickle than Men, less prone to wandering off looking for pastures new. For an Ent the grass is never greener on the other side of the fence.

The Ents are deeply ‘rooted’ both in the earth, & in the past. This is probably because their language is a language of ‘’right names’, which tells the stories of the earth & the beings which inhabit it. Every story is worth hearing & telling for the Ents. Their constancy is the constancy of the storyteller who tells his story through, even if there is no-one to hear it. The storytelling traditon is very old, & there’s an account of one traditional storyteller from the West of Scotland told in Rees’ ‘Celtic Heritage’ in the aftermath of the appearance of TV & Radio:

There came a time when it was but rarely that he had an opportunity himself of practicing his art in public. So, lest he should lose command over the tales he loved, he used to repeat them aloud ... using the gesticulations & the emphasis, & all the other tricks of narration, as if he were once again the centre of fireside storytelling ... On returning from market, as he walked slowly up the hills behind his old grey mare, he could be heard declaiming his tales to the back of the cart. (Quoted in Matthews’ The Western Way’ (vol 1: The native Tradition)

Its not too difficult a stretch to see the last Ent in Middle earth in a similar position, wandering through the last lonely stretch of forest, sadly singing the stories of all the lost places & beings he had once known.

Treebeard is lamenting the fact that no-one loves the woods as he does - we could probably extend that & say that no-one loves the plants & animals & people of Middle earth as he does, because no-one knows their stories as he does - & even he is forgetting - he cannot remember the rhymes of lore. Perhaps the Ents will finally die out not through grief or sickness, as with Elves, or through natural mortailty as with Men & other races, but through forgetfulness. They wiil forget, slowly, all their lore, all their true stories, & return to what they had been, before they were awakened & taught to speak the ‘right names’ of things.

As for the Entwives, it would seem that the deep difference between them is that while the Ents want to discover & tell the stories of things the way they are, the Entwives want to change the stories, adapt them to suit their own temperament:

But the Entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees, and to the meads in the sunshine beyond the feet of the forests; and they saw the sloe in the thicket, and the wild apple and the cherry blossoming in spring, and the green herbs in the waterlands in summer, and the seeding grasses in the autumn fields. They did not desire to speak with these things; but they wished them to hear and obey what was said to them. The Entwives ordered them to grow according to their wishes, and bear leaf and fruit to their liking; for the Entwives desired order, and plenty, and peace (by which they meant that things should remain where they had set them). So the Entwives made gardens to live in. But we Ents went on wandering, and we only came to the gardens now and again.

If the Entwives refused to speak to the plants & trees it could only be because they did not want, or need, to hear their stories. And that being the case, what, really, would Ents & Entwives have in common? The very stories the Ents lived to tell would be an irritation to the Entwives. And the ‘stories’ the Entwives wished to tell would have been empty & felt ‘contrived’ to the ents. Neither Ents nor Entwives had any desire to hear what the other had to say. A classic breakdown of communication - grounds for separation in anyone’s book .....

[Lalwendë]

It almost seems as if at this point Tolkien is thinking of Fangorn as an otherworldly place similar to Lorien; In Lorientime may move differently to the outside world, in Fangorn it is space[/i] that follows different laws. Or perhaps just as the Elves perceptions affect their understanding of time, the Ents perceptions affect their understanding of distance. Perhaps the Ents are more complex beings than may at first appear.

Is distance in Fangorn similar to a 'country mile', i.e. much more than a mile, or is it a concept which is lost in such a strange and magical place? This is interesting, as in Lorien, the peculiar concept of time is similar to that in the underworld - people being taken there may spend just a day, or so they think, when they have really spent seven years there. In Fangorn, maybe there is no set pattern to distance and space, and after all, such things are only a human construct to 'help' us fathom the world out. Maybe those trees move about so much that distance becomes irrelevant - who hasn't found themselves lost in a woodland and had the distinct feeling that the tress are somehow conspiring to make us lost?

If the Entwives refused to speak to the plants & trees it could only be because they did not want, or need, to hear their stories. And that being the case, what, really, would Ents & Entwives have in common? The very stories the Ents lived to tell would be an irritation to the Entwives. And the ‘stories’ the Entwives wished to tell would have been empty & felt ‘contrived’ to the ents. Neither Ents nor Entwives had any desire to hear what the other had to say. A classic breakdown of communication - grounds for separation in anyone’s book .....

Sometimes I think that a parallel could be drawn with the coming of agriculture to this world. At one time there was a vast 'wildwood' covering all of Britain, even right across our moors and mountains, and we humans lived as hunter gatherers there. But then came agriculture and the ordering and taming of the land, just as the Entwives did in Middle Earth. And the wildwood became an entirely separate entity (sorry...) to the tamed landscape. Neither side of our landscape would have anything worth saying to the other side; the woods must be kept trimmed back and the fields must be sprayed with pesticides and kept in order. Perhaps we have forced our own wildwood in to the situation of that of the ents. In Sherwood Forest there is an oak tree so old and immense it must be supported by props, and I wonder what tales that tree could tell; there are certainly many legends surrounding it.

And then what happens to trees for commercial reasons? They are cut down and in the rings we really can read the story of the times those trees have lived through - we can work out what years were dry, which were wet, which years the tree suffered damage. But when we read those tales it is too late, and that tree is alas dead, and will never tell any more stories of our times or anyone else's.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalwende

In Fangorn, maybe there is no set pattern to distance and space, and after all, such things are only a human construct to 'help' us fathom the world out. Maybe those trees move about so much that distance becomes irrelevant - who hasn't found themselves lost in a woodland and had the distinct feeling that the tress are somehow conspiring to make us lost?

I think its easy to get the idea that Fangorn is a 'natural' place - even the Ents themselves seem absolutely 'natural' beings, but look at the way Treebeard creates illumination in various forms - jets of light from the vessels on the table, the water droplets he shakes off turning into sparks of light, the trees all around him shining with light - what causes this effect? Does Treebeard have some kind of 'magical' power - & if so, what is its nature? We discussed the different kinds of magic in Middle earth back in the Khazad dum chapter, the Word of Command, etc - is this 'magic' displayed by Treebeard of a similar kind or different?

[Encaitare]

‘Ents are more like Elves: less interested in themselves than Men are, and better at getting inside other things’.

I always thought that this meant that Elves were not fascinated with themselves, as, say, Sam was fascinated with them, and that they (in general) did not have these great inner conflicts such as Men sometimes did (as seen in Boromir, especially). Instead, they were able to put their time to better use, getting things done rather than sitting about contemplating their navels. This doesn't really sound like Ents to me, though, seeing as they take a long time to do anything. But since they've been around for thousands of years, then I suppose maybe it could apply to the Ents as well.

Or, "better at getting inside other things" could refer to the way they both could communicate with and understand the trees.

[HerenIstarion]

See also The oldest people of ME? by Sharkû

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:

Its clear at least, that the LotR Ents appeared first, & that Tolkien wrote them back into the Sil.

This is certainly true. But there is one much earlier note that has always intrigued me. From the outlining for the Tale of Earendil in BoLT:

Voronwë and Eärendil set sail in Wingilot. Driven south. Dark regions. Fire mountains. Tree-men. Pygmies. Sarqindi or cannibal-ogres.

Tree-men. It is impossible to guess what lay behind these words. But one can at least speculate that Tolkien may have had a vague idea about tree-like people very early on.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Just a few quick comments.

For Ents are more like Elves: less interested in themselves than Men are, and better at getting inside other things’.. And yet again Ents are more like Men, more changeable than Elves are, and quicker at taking the colour of the outside, you might say. Or better than both: for they are steadier and keep their minds on things longer.

davem had mentioned the preceding quote which also stuck me as an odd thing for Treebeard to say. I can only conclude that perhaps these opinions of elves and men were formed from earlier days or maybe he had been misinformed? I do think that from an Ent's viewpoint the both men and elves would seem unable ‘to keep their minds on things’, even if it did not seem like it from their own standpoint. I am thinking for example of Gondor’s watch over Mordor. Granted they had less population than earlier, but one gets the impression that their vigilance was superceded by more mundane concerns.

As for the elves being less interested in themselves, maybe this can be true in a sense. I think their experience in ME had been a rather humbling one and you don’t seem to have the same ambition in them as once was there.

‘…And these-burarum,’ he made a deep rumbling noise like a discord on a great organ- ‘these Orcs, and young Saruman down at Isengard?…’

‘They are falling behind the world in there, I guess,’ he said. ‘Neither this country, nor anything else outside the Golden Wood, is what it was when Celeborn was young.’

It is interesting that Treebeard appears to view Saruman as young and Celeborn as no longer young. This could be due to Saruman’s later arrival in Treebeard’s ‘stomping grounds’ but still it is curious, and makes me wonder where exactly wizards would fall in the Ent’s lists, if indeed they are included at all.

One last impression. I am running on the intuitive side as usual…. Regarding Entwives. I can’t help getting a rather sinister feeling in the description of them. All this talk of order and orders reminds me terribly of Saruman’s pitch to Gandalf. The ends justify the means. Really I feel quite unsympathetic to them, and wonder if it is unintentional, simply a result of viewing them through an Ent’s eyes. But there is no mention of the concern of the Entwives for their charges. They nurture it is true, but in a rather bizarre and stunting way. I could imagine a great revolt in the orchard if the elves ever woke those trees! And a pile of mulch where the Entwives once stood! Quite a contrast with Quickbeam and his rowans!