The Autobiographical Tolkien - 'Leaf by Niggle'... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

HerenIstarion · 12-16-2004, 03:48 PM

What is to follow seems relevant, so here it comes:

Quote:

When Earth's Last Picture is Painted
by Rudyard Kipling

When earth's last picture is painted,
and the tubes are twisted and dried,
When the oldest colors have faded,
and the youngest critic has died,
We shall rest. And Faith, we shall need it;
to lie down for an aeon or two,
Till the master of all good workmen
shall set us to work anew!

And those that were good will be happy;
they shall sit in a golden chair.
They shall splash at a ten league canvas
with brushes of comets' hair.
They shall find real saints to draw from;
Magdalene, Peter, and Paul.
They shall work for an age at a sitting
and never be tired at all!

And only the Master shall praise us,
and only the Master shall blame;
And no one shall work for money;
and no one shall work for fame;
But each for the joy of the working,
and each, on his separate star,
Shall draw the things as he sees them
for the God of things as they are!

I'm not outright Kipling fan, and some of his poetry does not ring true at all to me, but this one verse is worthy of attention. For one, it's final half-stanza is currently my sig

For two, though some of the verse be a bit highly coloured (what 'golden chair', my precious?) it seems to express same hope (though Kipling pretends it is not hope but confidence, I still tend to believe he puts a brave face on half-feared hopes) with which Leaf by Niggle is soaked. Just that Tolkien's is a way more personal, not depicting some general 'good chaps', but himself

What have I dragged all of this in for? I'm not quite sure, I've said it seemed relevant. Do of it what you will

cheers

Kuruharan · 12-16-2004, 06:35 PM

That's interesting. I'd thought about this poem in connection to Leaf as well.

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-17-2006, 05:02 AM

I've dug up this old thread to research for a lecture I'd like to give at the next German Tolkien seminar coming spring. As I started and named the thread, I feel entitled to use the title (sorry, pun unintentional, but can't find a good substitute for either word) for my paper. I'm not yet sure whether I will be quoting some of the posts here, but I would like to ask in advance whether the members involved in the discussion allow me to use it as part of the "leaf-mould" for my topic. When I have it worked out in detail, I will contact those individuals whose words I would like to use verbatim.

Thanks in advance!

Guinevere · 06-11-2007, 10:29 AM

Browsing through Tolkien's letters , I recently came upon a sentence which ties in nicely with Niggle's Parish! I thought I'd share it with you!

Quote:

from letter #45 to his son Michael, written in June 1941:
"There is a place called "heaven" where the good here unfinished is completed; and where the stories unwritten, and the hopes unfulfilled, are continued."

So he had this idea, years before writing "Leaf by Niggle".
(Too bad I didn't discover this before your lecture, Esty!)

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-11-2007, 12:54 PM

Oh, but I can include that in my revision for the printed version of my lecture! Thanks for a great quote, Guinevere! (Revising and formatting for printing will be a major project this summer.)

07-10-2007, 11:34 AM

1) On Christopher, I can't find it at the moment (my collected Letters are literally in a box as I prepare to move), but I remember somewhere Tolkien warning his son that
a) He had great literary talent, but
b) It may not be the same as his, and that Christopher should try to find his own voice and distance himself from his shadow.

2) On the autobiographical/allegorical elements of Leaf by Niggle, I can only really present my own views and experiences. On the one hand, I know that Tolkien reveled in a bit of allegorical caricature (see pretty much everyone in Farmer Giles, representing the most ridiculous characteristics) of their "types." And perhaps that is at work in the utterly lawlike and practical Inspector, as Littlemanpoet pointed out.

I personally see Leaf by Niggle as a quiet reflection on the themes discussed above, and see Niggle as allegorically depicting Tolkien as Artist, but also feel I can understand why Tolkien didn't want it to be considered an allegory. I guess I would disagree if you said "so-and-so is such-and-such," but if you say "so-and-so exists and is this way in the story, and means this much to Tolkien, because of Tolkien's experiences with such-and-such," I wouldn't object. But I think the point of seeing the "allegory" is to understand the story as a story and absorb the meaning into our own lives, rather than merely to "figure it out." If that makes sense.

Estelyn Telcontar · 08-28-2007, 02:23 PM

I finished revising and formatting my lecture in preparation for publishing and am now proofreading a related lecture. Interestingly (though I will reveal no details, since I'm not the author) the author brings up the idea I had long ago, that Parish could be a representation of Edith!! Of course he realizes that the comparison doesn't work out completely. And of course I gave up that interpretation after discussing it here, and after reading Shippey's views on the topic...

12-16-2004, 06:35 PM	#2
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	That's interesting. I'd thought about this poem in connection to Leaf as well. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

07-17-2006, 05:02 AM	#3
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	I've dug up this old thread to research for a lecture I'd like to give at the next German Tolkien seminar coming spring. As I started and named the thread, I feel entitled to use the title (sorry, pun unintentional, but can't find a good substitute for either word) for my paper. I'm not yet sure whether I will be quoting some of the posts here, but I would like to ask in advance whether the members involved in the discussion allow me to use it as part of the "leaf-mould" for my topic. When I have it worked out in detail, I will contact those individuals whose words I would like to use verbatim. Thanks in advance! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-11-2007, 12:54 PM	#5
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Oh, but I can include that in my revision for the printed version of my lecture! Thanks for a great quote, Guinevere! (Revising and formatting for printing will be a major project this summer.) __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

08-28-2007, 02:23 PM	#7
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	I finished revising and formatting my lecture in preparation for publishing and am now proofreading a related lecture. Interestingly (though I will reveal no details, since I'm not the author) the author brings up the idea I had long ago, that Parish could be a representation of Edith!! Of course he realizes that the comparison doesn't work out completely. And of course I gave up that interpretation after discussing it here, and after reading Shippey's views on the topic... __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

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07-10-2007, 11:34 AM	#6
Chestertonian Ramble Guest Posts: n/a	1) On Christopher, I can't find it at the moment (my collected Letters are literally in a box as I prepare to move), but I remember somewhere Tolkien warning his son that a) He had great literary talent, but b) It may not be the same as his, and that Christopher should try to find his own voice and distance himself from his shadow. 2) On the autobiographical/allegorical elements of Leaf by Niggle, I can only really present my own views and experiences. On the one hand, I know that Tolkien reveled in a bit of allegorical caricature (see pretty much everyone in Farmer Giles, representing the most ridiculous characteristics) of their "types." And perhaps that is at work in the utterly lawlike and practical Inspector, as Littlemanpoet pointed out. I personally see Leaf by Niggle as a quiet reflection on the themes discussed above, and see Niggle as allegorically depicting Tolkien as Artist, but also feel I can understand why Tolkien didn't want it to be considered an allegory. I guess I would disagree if you said "so-and-so is such-and-such," but if you say "so-and-so exists and is this way in the story, and means this much to Tolkien, because of Tolkien's experiences with such-and-such," I wouldn't object. But I think the point of seeing the "allegory" is to understand the story as a story and absorb the meaning into our own lives, rather than merely to "figure it out." If that makes sense.