**The Return of the King Extended Edition**

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Sauron has yet to unleash his greatest foe, the Witch-King of Angmar, the one they say no living man can kill.

You may well be right there. I hadn't picked up on it.

If that's the line, it backs up the "imperviousness" interpretation, rather than the "circumstances" interpretation of the books - where Glorfindel says something like: "His doom is far off and will not come by the hand of a living man". (Of course, it didn't stop impetuous old Earnur running off into Mordor when the Witch king issued his challenge though, thus leaving Gondor without a King. )

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

I, frankly, wasn't overly impressed with the EE.

So, positives:
~I really liked the discussion between Gandalf and Pippin after they storm out of Denethor's Hall. It seemed to fit in really nicely there, and I liked the dialogue. There was some dialogue added to this film that seemed out of place.
~The scene between Aragorn and Eowyn in the hall was nice, but unnecessary.
~I liked a lot of the smaller added stuff, such as Merry speaking to Aragorn as they watch Pippin and Gandalf ride off, Merry trying to get his pony to go while the Rohirrim are leaving, the look between Gandalf and Pippin during the drinking song... stuff like that.
~I cried a little when Eomer found Eowyn on the battlefield. Go Karl! I also enjoyed the short Houses of Healing part. I love the look when Faramir sees Eowyn, but I do wish there had been more between them.
~I love Frodo and Sam joining up with the orc bands.

There are other positives, but my brain is mush after that long.

Negatives:
~After all the build up, the Saruman scene didn't do it for me. I wanted more of the witty banter between Gandalf and Saruman, like in the books. The death was kinda cheesy too. I did, however, enjoy Bernard Hill's line delivery during this scene.
~The Gimli and Legolas drinking was cheesy and seemed out of place.
~Gimli tries to blow away the ghosts? Sometimes I think that too much "comic relief" is thrust upon poor Gimli.
~Why is Eowyn wandering the encampment with her helmet off... and so close to Theoden too? I would've loved to have seen her as Dernhelm, if that makes sense. Some great scenes were lost from the book.
~I liked the Houses of Healing scene with her and Faramir, but so much of it was lost... no mention of her being beautiful, no talk of Aragorn... no wedding
~I, personally, thought that The Mouth was kinda campy.

[Turin]

Originally Posted by Tigerlily Gamgee

I, frankly, wasn't overly impressed with the EE.

Negatives:
~After all the build up, the Saruman scene didn't do it for me. I wanted more of the witty banter between Gandalf and Saruman, like in the books. The death was kinda cheesy too. I did, however, enjoy Bernard Hill's line delivery during this scene.
~The Gimli and Legolas drinking was cheesy and seemed out of place.
~Gimli tries to blow away the ghosts? Sometimes I think that too much "comic relief" is thrust upon poor Gimli.
~Why is Eowyn wandering the encampment with her helmet off... and so close to Theoden too? I would've loved to have seen her as Dernhelm, if that makes sense. Some great scenes were lost from the book.
~I liked the Houses of Healing scene with her and Faramir, but so much of it was lost... no mention of her being beautiful, no talk of Aragorn... no wedding
~I, personally, thought that The Mouth was kinda campy.

At last! Someone who agrees with me!

[Essex]

~I, personally, thought that The Mouth was kinda campy.

Campy?????

I thought he was the best, most 'frightening' monster in the whole trilogy.

If you saw the MoS down an alleyway, would your first impression be Campy? I don't think so! And I know what I would do in that situation. I'd run as fast as I could in the opposite direction, throwing women and children behind me!

(sorry, nicked that last line from Billy Connolly)

[Guinevere]

Originally posted by Turin:

My overall impression from the EE is that it doesn't reconcile many of my disappointments that I had with the theatrical version. In fact, it has rather deflated my (already deflating) enthusiasm for the Trilogy, in general.

I agree with everything that Turin wrote in post #15 !

About the dialogues being inconsitant: I think so too! My favourite parts in all the movies are the parts where Tolkien's original quotes are used. But, more often than not, these quotes are spoken by different persons and in different circumstances. It annoys me that the scriptwriters thought they could do better than Tolkien...

There are several things that puzzled me in the new scenes:
- Saruman tells Gandalf "What words of comfort did you give the halfling before you sent him to his doom?" This sounds like he knows about Frodo being sent to Mt.Doom with the Ring... but how would he know that, and Sauron doesn't ? Strange...
I enjoyed seeing and hearing Christopher Lee again, but the scene "didn't do it" for me either.

- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out...

- I am still wondering at the lack of military tacticts of the Gondorians. How can they be so blue eyed not to expect the enemy to attack from across the river ? And why do they let them land calmly instead of shooting them before they have landed?
"Faramir's sacrifice" indeed. It's more stupid than desperate to ride in a broad line towards the orcs lying in wait for them, so as to offer them the most possible targets!

- the avalanche of skulls in the Paths of the Dead was exaggerated and seemed therefore rather ridiculous to me.
I was astonished to see that when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli emerge from the paths, the river with the corsair's ships is immediately below them. Well, at least that explains why they could afford to let the horses escape before entering the paths! But even if they take a shortcut and do not make for Pelargir, Anduin would still be quite a long way off, as is shown on the map on the DVD-cover!!
Overall, ME in the movies seems much, much smaller than in the books.
- I, too, was mystified by the smashed "Evenstar". But then, the whole thing about Arwen dying and her fate being tied to the Ring etc never seemed logical to me.
- the "Houses of Healing" disappointed me too. No Athelas, no "healing hands" no "calling back" the spirit and Faramir & Merry aren't healed by Aragorn. I guess they just didn't want Aragorn to have supernatural powers..

-The „Mouth of Sauron“ seemed more disgusting than frightening to me. And I was disappointed about the changed conversation. What was the use of thrusting Frodo’s shirt at Gandalf and telling him that he had died under torment ? It seemed much more effective to me as it was in the book, where he implies that Frodo is in Sauron’s power but alive – that way he could try to blackmail them.


Like Tigerlily Gamgee I liked many of the small scenes that she mentioned and that enhanced the characters.
- My favourite new scene is "Pippin, guard of the Citadel" where he speaks with Faramir and is told that the livery was his as a boy. It's so nice to see those two become friends, and explains why Pippin will do everything to safe Faramir.

- I liked the scene with Faramir and Eowyn - it was very well done, although it was way too short! I had been looking forward to that so much! However, if those two weren't given more time and speech together, it was better to leave it at that, and not to show any kiss or talk of wedding.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Campy?????

I thought he was the best, most 'frightening' monster in the whole trilogy.

If you saw the MoS down an alleyway, would your first impression be Campy? I don't think so! And I know what I would do in that situation. I'd run as fast as I could in the opposite direction, throwing women and children behind me!

It wasn't so much the way he looked, but the way he spoke. The trilogy has a huge lot of exaggerated "monster" voices, so to speak.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

For now, a few brief comments:

1) Two thumbs up for Turin's comments. Perhaps the worst bit
in the movies was Denethor's characterization in general, and Gandalf's
mugging of him in particular.

2) In the extended dvd, why did Legolas shoot Grima? Grima was in the
process of, successfully, whacking Saruman.

3) The voice of Saruman was still underplayed, Saruman was far too
high up, not on the balcony of Orthanc, and there was no confrontation/
temptation of others by his voice, and no express allusion to the power of
his voice.

4) And, while the Easter Egg wasn't as "surprising" as the first two, I am
zinking the German interviewer certainly sought to ask probing and
provocative questions of Elijah Wood.

[Turin]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Originally posted by Turin: I agree with everything that Turin wrote in post #15 !

About the dialogues being inconsitant: I think so too! My favourite parts in all the movies are the parts where Tolkien's original quotes are used. But, more often than not, these quotes are spoken by different persons and in different circumstances. It annoys me that the scriptwriters thought they could do better than Tolkien...

There are several things that puzzled me in the new scenes:
- Saruman tells Gandalf "What words of comfort did you give the halfling before you sent him to his doom?" This sounds like he knows about Frodo being sent to Mt.Doom with the Ring... but how would he know that, and Sauron doesn't ? Strange...
I enjoyed seeing and hearing Christopher Lee again, but the scene "didn't do it" for me either.

- Eowyn's dream :Why is she sleeping alone on a frail sofa in the deserted hall ? Doesn't the poor girl have a bedroom of her own ?! Or is she just lying in wait for Aragorn to come out...

- I am still wondering at the lack of military tacticts of the Gondorians. How can they be so blue eyed not to expect the enemy to attack from across the river ? And why do they let them land calmly instead of shooting them before they have landed?
"Faramir's sacrifice" indeed. It's more stupid than desperate to ride in a broad line towards the orcs lying in wait for them, so as to offer them the most possible targets!

- the avalanche of skulls in the Paths of the Dead was exaggerated and seemed therefore rather ridiculous to me.
I was astonished to see that when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli emerge from the paths, the river with the corsair's ships is immediately below them. Well, at least that explains why they could afford to let the horses escape before entering the paths! But even if they take a shortcut and do not make for Pelargir, Anduin would still be quite a long way off, as is shown on the map on the DVD-cover!!
Overall, ME in the movies seems much, much smaller than in the books.
- I, too, was mystified by the smashed "Evenstar". But then, the whole thing about Arwen dying and her fate being tied to the Ring etc never seemed logical to me.
- the "Houses of Healing" disappointed me too. No Athelas, no "healing hands" no "calling back" the spirit and Faramir & Merry aren't healed by Aragorn. I guess they just didn't want Aragorn to have supernatural powers..

-The „Mouth of Sauron“ seemed more disgusting than frightening to me. And I was disappointed about the changed conversation. What was the use of thrusting Frodo’s shirt at Gandalf and telling him that he had died under torment ? It seemed much more effective to me as it was in the book, where he implies that Frodo is in Sauron’s power but alive – that way he could try to blackmail them.


Like Tigerlily Gamgee I liked many of the small scenes that she mentioned and that enhanced the characters.
- My favourite new scene is "Pippin, guard of the Citadel" where he speaks with Faramir and is told that the livery was his as a boy. It's so nice to see those two become friends, and explains why Pippin will do everything to safe Faramir.

- I liked the scene with Faramir and Eowyn - it was very well done, although it was way too short! I had been looking forward to that so much! However, if those two weren't given more time and speech together, it was better to leave it at that, and not to show any kiss or talk of wedding.

Guinevere, you speak for me too! I agree about some of the more um...illogical choices that PJ & C0 made and definitley that some of the really good scenes were just too short.

[Boromir88]

The point I'm trying to get at is I truly think PJ read and understood LOTR. PJ's explanations for why he changed what he did, are reasonable. Whether they are to appeal to a larger fan base. To, what's the term, make LOTR "dumber," to emphasize certain aspects of the movie. I think PJ understood a lot of concepts in Tolkien, I also think he misinterpretted some of Tolkien's points (focusing in on the battles for one), but we all make misinterpretations from time to time. And we are STILL, here debating over, "What Tolkien is meaning to say/show us here?"

One thing for sure, we can all credit Mr. Jackson for having Tolkien placed back as one of the top selling authors of the century. That is the number one reason I enjoy the movies, the matter is, PJ got more people to pick up Tolkien books and read them .