**The Return of the King Extended Edition**

[Boromir88]

Essex,

Eomer explaining to eowyn that war wasn't for women and hobbits. ha ha ha, you silly fool, with one quick stab from a hobbit and a final blow from a woman, the fate of Middle-earth was saved.

You got to love irony .

although the evenstar smashing to pieces???? why?

I'm guessing PJ needed a way to explain why Aragorn would die if he was giving Evenstar. Arwen gave Evenstar to Frodo. So, I think PJ just wanted to show, well, heck if Aragorn has Evenstar why does he die? I know I have been asked that many times.

Don't get me started on Denethor, that'll get me in a bad mood all day .

Overall though I enjoyed the extra scenes, I thought it tied up a lot of the loose ends.

[Turin]

My overall impression from the EE is that it doesn't reconcile many of my disappointments that I had with the theatrical version. In fact, it has rather deflated my (already deflating) enthusiasm for the Trilogy, in general.

Some of my observations:

1. Voice of Saruman scene just didn't do it for me. There is no ominous atmosphere created and Saruman's death was pretty pathetic: they could have at least made it so that his body disappears and his spirit departs.

2. The swaggering Aragorn. I think the over-use of the Army of the Dead lessens the impact that Aragorn and co have in determining a successful outcome to the Battle of Pelennor. I think it would have been nice to show that there were many Gondorians who had been freed from the Corsairs and aid Minas Tirith at the last moment. Also, are Gimli and Legolas still playing their Orc-counting game? Talk about over-egging the pudding!!

3. The dialogue. To put it mildly: Inconsistent. At times moving and well-thought out, at other times, appalling and laughable!! Especially Gandalf's lines.

4. Denethor. Still no improvement and probably the worst characterisation in the whole trilogy. Awful.

5. Mouth of Sauron. I always imagined him to be an ominous, creepy character, more man than orc (which is how I feel he is portrayed in the movie). Instead it is almost comical the way he is portrayed. I wanted to laugh, not hold my breath in dreaded anticipation!

6. Gandalf Vs Witch King. I thought that this would have been one of the most dramatic scenes in the whole of the trilogy. I would have liked this scene to have been more closer to the book: Gandalf holding his own at the Gate and not being intimidated. It's ridiculous, after all that Gandalf has been through (including having his powers enhanced) that he should succumb so easily to the Lord of the Nazgul and have his staff broken. Come on!

7. Eowyn and Merry. I thought that they could have suffered a bit more in the Houses of Healing! I agree that Gandalf's words in the book when Merry is being led by Pippin would have been particularly poignant.

[Essex]

I know I've already had my say, but let me point out one thing re the Witch King / Gandalf confrontation:


Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.


This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.

Gandalf's staff. IMO I believe this was broken to make the next scene with him confronting Denethor more of a contest than just being able to zap him with his staff. Remember Gandalf had to nab a spear off one of the guards to knock him down with.....Just my opinion and I'll be interseted to hear Jackson's point on this on the commentary if he has one.

[Boromir88]

I thought anything with Denethor in it was done badly. The Pyre scene especially. I mean Denethor pours oil on himself, gets too close to a flame, goes up in flames, runs out screaming, like a maniac. What did you expect? You poured flammable liquid on yourself and caught on fire.

Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.

This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.

Makes sense to me. As you've said, eventhough Gandalf wasn't a "man," his powers were limitted and he was shown in man form. We also, must remember, that the Witch-king is no chump either. Eowyn would have gotten annhilated if it wasn't for Merry. (Sorry Eowyn I still love you ).

[Boromir88]

I know I'm posting again, but a thought came to me on Saruman.

Turin,

1. Voice of Saruman scene just didn't do it for me. There is no ominous atmosphere created and Saruman's death was pretty pathetic:

Actually, I thought Chris Lee captured Saruman's voice perfectly. Exactly as I imagined it. After hearing his voice, I can see that Chris Lee truly understands Tolkien. Also, since PJ cut out the Scouring I thought the death of Saruman was really the best way they could have done it.

First-It's a metareference back to his earlier days as Dracula. Where several times Chris Lee is impaled on a wheel of spikes.

Second- If you think about it. Tolkien hates industry, hates machinery. Saruman is one that built up, he was like the "Germany," he was always mixing races, building industries, creating rings, in search for power. I think it's only natural that Saruman dies on his own machines that he constructed, a rather fitting end.

[The Saucepan Man]

I have a copy of the EE which I purchased last Friday, but I still haven't had a chance to watch it yet. Christmas preparations (Christmas tree, wrapping up presents etc) pretty much took up the whole weekend, and now I'm back at work ...

Still, I am savouring the anticipation.

One small, but important, point:

Originally Posted by Essex

Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.


This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.

The prophecy was to the effect that the Witch King would not be killed by a man, not that he could not be killed by a man. The Witch King was not therefore "impervious" to Gandalf. It was just that, according to the prophecy, the circumstances would never arise whereby a man would be in a position to destroy the Witch King.

Nevertheless, I doubt that any of the points that have been raised will impair my enjoyment of the EE. After all, these films tell a different story from the book, so inconsistencies between the films and the book don't really bother me. As long as they enhance the films as films and don't introduce any inconsistencies within the films, then I'll be happy. And, on that basis, it sounds as if I have a treat in store.

[Avie]

Got to agree with comments regarding Denethor. Dreadful melodramatic acting (you half expect folks to yell Boo! Hiss! when he appears so much a pantomime villian does he appear) and no sense whatsoever of Tolkien's "noble mind overthrown"
And film Faramir...YACK. Total damsel in distress requiring rescuing from this or that at roughly hourly intervals...
Loved the extended Paths of the Dead sequences though and the added palantir scene with Aragorn is good too.
The EE is worth having but does not undo the general film-version mess made of Denethor's family.

[Boromir88]

Nevertheless, I doubt that any of the points that have been raised will impair my enjoyment of the EE. After all, these films tell a different story from the book, so inconsistencies between the films and the book don't really bother me.

SpM, I'll try to make this from a movie critiquers point-of-view, and not a purists. I won't do any mentioning of what PJ left out from the books .

I thought the acting was splendid, and the scenery, that's what totally catches me about the movies. I thought PJ did a excellent job on those aspects. Even despite my dislike for the slaughter of Denethor's character, John Noble is still a great actor, and plays a really good scumbag you want to punch, like Gandalf....

The problem to me was a lack of character developement. I think PJ tried to focus in on the battle scenes (which are important, but that I don't think is Tolkien's point of the story). He tried to make the battle scenes a focus, and did not focus in enough on the Characters. It's not the fact that PJ missed some concepts that gets me mad (because after all we do miss some concepts, and are still debating over others). Just the simple fact that he made this an action-packed fighting movie, instead of a more sentimental, character focused story. The recent National Treasure movie is what comes to mind. I love this movie, and most people slam it because there is not enough explosions or killing. This, to me, is a wonderful movie, because each character brings their own personality to the table. And we see their character change to fit the conflict they are in. The dialogue in National Treasure, I thought was great. Anyway, I think I rambled on enough.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

IThe prophecy was to the effect that the Witch King would not be killed by a man, not that he could not be killed by a man. The Witch King was not therefore "impervious" to Gandalf. It was just that, according to the prophecy, the circumstances would never arise whereby a man would be in a position to destroy the Witch King.

OK, you seem to be better versed in the circumstances of this Prophecy (I admit I can't get my hands on when it's actually said - is it in the Council of Elrond or unfinished tales or what?)

But to add to my point of view, Mr Angmar himself is fairly sure of himself, but I suppose this could be misguided arrogance......

WK (to Eowyn) as he's about to kick her butt: (or so he thinks)

Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!

I've no doubt missed the thread or forgotten about it where we've discussed this before. Or it may have been before my time....

[The Saucepan Man]

... is it in the Council of Elrond or unfinished tales or what?

It is in one of the Appendices. I haven't got the book to hand, but it's the section dealing with the final defeat of the Witch King of Angmar at the Battle of Fornost. The prophecy was made by Glorfindel, as he held Earnur back from following the retreating Witch King.

I don't think that it is made clear whether the Witch King was aware of the prophecy or whether he was simply displaying his arrogance at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Although the fact that he shows sudden doubt when Eowyn reveals her true identity might suggest that he was aware of it.

In any event, it might be said that Glorfindel's prophecy is irrelevant for the purposes of the film, since it is never mentioned. We only have the Witch King's declaration that no living man may hinder him. And that, I suppose, could be interpreted as indicating that he is impervious to any man (including, on the basis of your reasoning, Gandalf).