**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

[Maédhros]

Where are we right now then?

It seems that we have agreed on the most difficult points regarding the storyline. One would think that we would follow a very similar path like the one we used in the Fall of Gondolin, in which we took the later text Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin to the end and then we joined it with the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin.
In this particular case it would be the Wanderings of Húrin with the Tale of Turambar and the Tale of the Nauglafring, but unlike in our work with the Fall of Gondolin, it is a little different. In the Fall of Gondolin, the evolution of the characters didn't change that much as the story evolved contrary to that of the Tale of the Nauglafring. The elves of Gondolin, there is really not that big a difference between those in the Tale and those in later Tuor, while there is a huge difference between the "wood elves" in the Tale and the later "elves of Nargothrond". Also in the Tale Tinwelint has no treasure in comparison to the latter Thingol who does. The good thing however is that Thingol attitude hasn't changed much as the story changed over time.
I also wonder about the treasure of Nargothrond. In the Tale, a great deal of the treasure was of "unworked" gold but I wonder why that should be in our later story. At the time of the Tale, the Rodothlim were very different that the Elves of Nargothrond. Why would the later Elves of Nargothrond had a great part of their treasure in "unworked" gold if they were the same who brought from Valinor a greater part of their gems than any of the other Ñoldorian exiles?
From the Book of Lost Tales II: Tale of Turambar

In this passage is found (so far as written record goes, for it is to be remembered that a wholly erased text underlies the manuscript) the origin of Nargothrond, as yet unnamed. Among many remarkable features the chief is perhaps that Orodreth was there before Felagund, Lord of Caves, with whom in the later legend Nargothrond was identified, as its founder and deviser. (In The Silmarillion Orodreth was one of Finrod Felagund's brothers (the sons of Finarfin), to whom Felagund gave the command of Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion after the making of Nargothrond (p. 120), and Orodreth became King of Nargothrond after Felagund's death.) In the tale this cave-dwelling of exiled Noldoli is a simpler and rougher place

I don't think that matter of the treasure is a big deal, but it is something to be considered.

The question that now come is this:
How many details can we add from the Tale to our story?
Aiwendil, Findegil has proposed an addition of the last part of the attack of the sons of Fëanor with Dior, and I liked it a lot, I wonder what do you think about it and if we can get away with using that?

Because Findegil and me have worked in our versions of the story, we are in a way very advanced but I wonder which text will we use as our base text for the story now.

[Findegil]

Because Findegil and me have worked in our versions of the story, we are in a way very advanced but I wonder which text will we use as our base text for the story now.

If we would now go back to your or to my version and take that up as a basis text, we would again be hard put to fight down details in favour of the established storylinie. Well, all that I did in this thread was meant to creat the basis text! I provided it in post #65. Since that, some emendations have been made in the following discussion, which we have to integrate.
The next step is to replace phrases and sentences of that basis text with more detailed material. The crux is now not to change the storyline by the exchange or adddition.
Thus the basis text is Q30 and we have to groups of changes RD-SL-zz for changes done to make the storylinie fit our understanding developed above and RD-EX-zz for expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed.

I have already started that process and will bring forth a text in the privat forum soon. In the moment I do not see how I can rip that text of enough content to post a version of it here in the public forum, but I will think about that when the text is complet (because I at least highly disire to make the discussion understandable for (interested) visitors).
Just to make Maédhros more confident with the process: I a sure you that I had your draft 4 in front of me when I search for possible addition. I do that work really by a comparison of three texts (not that easy to do): The text given in post #65 with the emendations discussed there after; Maédhros draft #4 and my owne version made in response to Maédhros draft #1. To make that comparison easier to follow, I did adopt the §-numbers form draft #1 (as I did in my version, but without each § mentioned that was droped or moved). In addition each change will be indicated by one of our "editorial markers" (RD-yy-zz).

So fare for the moment, and I now will go back to the work on the text.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.:

I think we are agreed on the storyline, though. I do want to look it over when I get a chance, but I can think of no further problems at the moment.

Aiwendil, I am not sure you will get that chance before we start the discussion about added details, but that does not hinder any part of the storyline to be discussed again if you find that it needs some further discussion and / or change. If you would rather like me to wait with the above promissed text, please make a remark here. I will not post the text before tomorrow and will chek her before posting.

[Aiwendil]

Go ahead and post it. I will, alas, be quite busy over the next few days and won't get much time to look things over.

Could we perhaps post the changes in the public forum by only indicating the beginning and end of extracts? For example, for a long insertion from TN:

Text from Q30 <TN Beginning of first sentence of extract . . . end of last sentence.> Text from Q30.

[Findegil]

I have posted the text in the privat forum. I stiked to the sections Maédhros has once made, even if they do not sweet my text very good.

A version for the public forum will follow as soon as I can manage to creat it. So please restrict yourself for a short time and start the discussion here in the public forum, after I posted the text here.
The public version will ofcourse not have a "cleaned" text and it will be much harder to follow. Therefore I would recommend the privat version to any member.

I am sure that not all my addtions to the text will make it to the final version, but I hope that my version does bring the project forward. At least the "cleaned" text should be a nice read.
So sit back, take some time and enjoy!

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Things worked out faster than I thought. The version for the public forum is also posted now. So please feel free to comment. Any discussion is awaited in happy expectancy.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I look forward to reading it as soon as I get a chance.

For the moment, though, one thing that occurred to me: If we change Gelion to Duin Daer, what is to be done with the name "Thargelion"? I can think of no reasonable way of replacing it, but I'm not sure that such a difficulty could be considered a valid case for rejecting the change and retaining "Gelion".

[Findegil]

The least we can do is take the other names of the land "Dor Caranthir" or Talath Rhûnen" at least we could use the discriptive translation "The Land beyond Duin Dear". The only problem would than be the one passage were all these names are given.

Respectfully
Findegil