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Old 11-23-2004, 07:47 AM   #1
mark12_30
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Amon Hen-- I don't think the hill wore out its magic. But anything supernatural takes participation to experience. If Ted Sandyman had stood on that hill, do you think he would have seen anything? I don't.

Even for those who are very capable-- it doesn't always come together. Think of the times when Gandalf's supernatural abilities are frustrated. He can't remember; or something blocks him; or he just makes a mistake, a bad choice, and his magic doesn't do him much good if he's in the wrong place. Isn't Gandalf supernatural? Of course he is. But it's like anything else; you're never 100% effective 100% of the time. It comes and goes, sometimes you're 'on', sometimes you're not.

An olympic athlete has to be in the right mental and physical "space" to give an olympic performance. Just being in the venue doesn't make you a winner. But being out of the venue doesn't help much if you want that medal.

Being on top of Amon Hen isn't an automatic visionary experience. But if you are seeking a vision, and you can have them, and you know what to do, or you are gifted in that area-- it might all come together, like it did for Frodo (who ran up there with no clear thoughts in mind and no expectations, hence, open to whatever he might see.) Or it might not come together at all, as when Aragorn ran up the hill, worried about the fellowship, frantically chasing Frodo, annoyed with Boromir, and wishing Gandalf was there to help. He saw nothing. Perhaps he was Meant to see nothing (there I go with capitals again) or perhaps he could have seen something if he was prepared and ready, and in the right emotional and mental and spiritual 'space'. He wasn't. He was half-frantic. No visionary 'gold medal' that day for Aragorn.

But:
-the olympic venue hadn't changed.
-Aragorn's heart does see and speak clearly later without the aid of Amon Hen.

Rimbaud-- my favorite thread(s) have changed many times over the past thirty years-- hmm, almost as often as I've switched 'favorite characters'.
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Old 11-23-2004, 10:38 AM   #2
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do you have a favoured strand, and read a little impatiently through the others, until you return to the strand you have the most interest in?
I like all the strands too much to read one of them impatiently, but in this part of the story I would choose the chapter that features Merry, Pip, and the orcs as my favorite.
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Old 11-23-2004, 02:04 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Aldarion
I would argue that, rather than the most pragmatic of the bunch, Boromir is the most idealistic of the company - an idealism that is not rooted in reality.
Fascinating point. I can't help wondering if this is the conflict that's ging on inside Boromir - not the obvious one of 'How do I get my hands on the Ring without getting myself done in?' but a conflict between his desire for the Ring (or what it menas to him) & his own sense of what is 'Right'. Basically all that stuff about being truth speakers & upholders of right & justice has up to that point been just words. He's lived by them because nothing has really challenged them. Now he's being forced to live by those words & the struggle becomes overwhelming. Even when he breaks & attempts to steal the Ring he still attempts to justify what he's doing in terms of the philosophy he's grown up with.

He's a man who has been able to follow his desires for power & authority while still holding to the letter of those teachings, because he was fighting a war against an external 'evil' force. Suddenly he's confronted with the spirit of them & is 'torn in two'. In the end, as Aragorn tells him, he 'conquers' & chooses the spirit over the letter of those teachings. Something St. Paul (?)said about the 'Letter kills, the spirit gives life' springs to mind.
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Old 11-23-2004, 09:52 PM   #4
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Eye Alas poor Boromir ...

Short though it is, this Chapter must rank among my favourites. I still have a vague (unfortunately too vague) recollection of the shock of Boromir's death when I first read the book. It is one of those moments that stays with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar
The chapter title is rather ambiguous - did anyone think that it meant Boromir was going to Minas Tirith when first reading the book?
The title choice is important. Imagine picking up the book in the shop and reading the Chapter title: "The Death of Boromir" or something similar! This became even more important with LotR's eventual publication under a single cover, as was Tolkien's original intention. If the first-time reader knew of Boromir's fate all along it would significantly affect his or her reaction to the character.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn
As mark/Helen commented in the previous chapter discussion, he is not even able to make use of the possibility of seeing on Amon Hen. Apparently the personal situation of the one who comes there affects what happens.
Like Estelyn and Helen, I believe that Aragorn's experience at Amon Hen is very much a product of his frame of mind. He is riven with worry and indecision. His mind is clouded, and so is his view. Although both Frodo and Aragorn come to Amon Hen with choices to make, there is a fundamental difference. Frodo had already, in his heart, made his choice (particularly after his experience with Boromir). He knows what he has to do, and this is simply confirmed by what he sees at the Seat of Seeing. Aragorn, on the other hand, remains undecided. And it is for him to make his final decision, guided by the circumstances and with the support of those in whom he trusts. It is not the function of the Seat to make his mind up for him. And, in any event, what could he possibly see that would aid him in his choice? The Orcs carrying off Merry and Pippin? Frodo and Sam rowing to the far shore? He will become aware of these things soon enough, through his own actions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn
One thing that stands out in this chapter is Aragorn's uncertainty.
Indeed. And then some. But this continues a pattern that we have seen throughout the preceding Chapters, commencing with Gandalf's fall in Moria. Aragorn has had the leadership of the Fellowship thrust upon him, and he doubts his own ability to live up to this role. We have seen his desire to prolong making any decision as to the course which the Fellowship should take (most particularly in his eagerness to follow the flow of the Anduin, with almost disastrous consequences). His doubt and indecision have been growing since Gandalf's fall, and this Chapter sees the culmination of this trend. Not once but twice he reflects that all that he has done this day has gone amiss. His soliloquy following Boromir's death drips with despair. I think that it has been quoted once already, but it bears repeating:


Quote:
'Alas!' said Aragorn. 'Thus passes the heir of Denethor, Lord of the Tower of the Guard! This is a bitter end. Now the company is all in ruin. It is I that have failed. Vain was Gandalf's trust in me. What shall I do now? Boromir has laid it on me to go to Minas Tirith, and my heart desires it; but where are the Ring and the Bearer? How shall I find them and save the Quest from disaster?'
What's going on? Here we have the character who represents hope (Estel) seemingly losing all hope himself. This truly represents his lowest point.

But he does not give up. With the support of Legolas and Gimli, he picks himself up and starts to assess the position. His words and actions begin to take on a more positive, confident tone. Perhaps, as Gimli says, there is no right choice. But there is a choice to be made and, having gathered as much information as he can, Aragorn faces up to it. (I tend to think that Gimli is wrong here. Who knows what would have happened had Aragorn chosen to follow Frodo, but the choice which he makes ultimately turns out for the good. And it would have been unthinkable to leave Merry and Pippin to their fate while hope remained that they were alive. But, to be fair to Gimli, his comment here is made without full knowledge of the facts.)


Quote:
But come! With or without hope we will follow the trail of our enemies. And woe to them, if we prove the swifter! We will make such a chase as shall be accounted a marvel among the Three Kindreds: Elves, Dwarves and Men. Forth the Three Hunters!
Positive, affirmative and inspiring statements. A complete contrast to Aragorn's words immediately following Boromir's death. (And even I, film 'apologist' that I am, have to admit that they are infinately superior to "Lets hunt some Orc!" .)

This Chapter marks an essential stage in the transformation of Aragorn into one who is worthy to become the leader of Men. It's not that he lacked confidence or hope or leadership skills before. But he is destined to become King of the greatest nation of (Western) Middle earth, and that requires exceptional qualities. These he shows in some measure in lifting himself from despair and rising to the challenge set for him here. But he has to do this himself. The Seat of Seeing cannot provide the solution for him.

Like Aiwendil, I have always regarded Aragorn as a rather flat character but, for the reasons discussed above, I have to agree with him when he says that this Chapter is probably the best portrayal of Aragorn in the book.

And so, once again, to Boromir.


Quote:
At last slow words came. "I tried to take the Ring from Frodo. I am sorry. I have paid."
In these words, I do see true repentance on Boromir's part. Aldarion Elf-Friend makes the very good point that Boromir's greatest, perhaps only, lie was to himself. In admitting to Aragorn that he tried to take the Ring (something which he could not bring himself to do when he first returned to Parth Galen), he is admitting to himself that he was wrong to do so - to allow himself to be corrupted by it. In my view, this is indeed what he is referring to when he says that he has failed. He recognises that it is something for which 'payment' is due. He is, I think, truly sorry. And Aragorn's words suggest to me that Boromir has, finally, conquered the Ring's hold over him (or that within him to which the Ring appealed). I doubt that Aragorn is just talking about the dead Orcs when he says that "Few have gained such a victory".

It is, to my mind, important that Boromir's act of redemption (whereby he 'pays' for his mistake) is one which reminds us of his redeeming qualities. As Lalwendë has noted, the fact that he is surrounded by the bodies of those that he has slain marks him out as a warrior. And the sheer number that lay piled up around him, not to mention the alarming number of arrows that have pierced him, highlight his valour and strength.

Boromir's downfall came through his over-confidence - thinking (or deceiving himself) that he knew better than the Wise what to do with the Ring. But he redeems himself through those qualities in which he is rightfully confident: valour, strength and skill in arms. Interestingly, Aragorn's low point in this Chapter comes through a lack of confidence in his own qualities, but it is through exercising his undoubted skills in tracking (through which he learns of Frodo's choice and gains a goal - to save Merry and Pippin) that he finds inspiration as a leader and sets off on the path which is, ultimately, to lead him to the throne of Gondor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
This use of the word ‘confessed’ seems significant - especially in the light of Tolkien’s statement that he had deliberately made the story Catholic in the revision. Actually it seems that his original idea was more Catholic but he changed it. Boromir dies forgiven & absolved of his ‘sins’ because he made a ‘death bed’ confession to Aragorn (well, to Trotter). But what does this say about Aragorn/Trotter? Does it mean that Tolkien saw him as having a ‘priestly’ role - able not simply to hear confession, but to give absolution?
But the final version does retain the 'confession' element. Boromir does confess what he has done to Aragorn. And, interestingly, Aragorn honours the confidentiality of Boromir's confession, for he does not mention it to Legolas or Gimli and keeps Boromir's last words to him secret for a long time thereafter. In light of this, I cannot help but find the suggestion that Aragorn is somehow assuming a 'priestly' role here a compelling one. Aragorn forgives Boromir by his words and deeds, but isn't he simply offering his personal forgiveness? I doubt that Tolkien would see Aragorn as giving absolution in Eru's name, since that would be a matter for Eru. Then again, as I have suggested above, Aragorn's words of forgiveness work, I think, to inspire forgiveness in the reader. Do they therefore absolve Boromir as a matter of fact, within the context of the story?


Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Third, why do Aragorn, Gimli & Legolas take so much time over Boromir’s funeral arrangements? It seems illogical - shouldn’t they be off after the Hobbits straight away? I was always struck by the strangeness of their actions. It seems both right & wrong to do what they do. Logically, its silly. Boromir’s dead, the Hobbits are alive & in need, yet the three remaining companions take time to take Boromir to the boat, row it out into the stream & then sing a funeral dirge over his body. Yet on some level I know it was both right & necessary, & I would have lost all respect for them if they hadn’t done what they did - what’s that line about the heart having reasons that reason knows not of?
I agree that it was both right and necessary. In the context of the moral values inherent in the story, it would have been unthinkable to leave Boromir's body "lying like carrion among these foul Orcs". What is the point of fighting against Sauron if they do not uphold the values which set them apart from him?

Finally, a quick word on the barrow blades which Aragorn finds among the bodies of the Orcs. It is heartening to see that Merry and Pippin did not allow themselves to be captured without a fight. But more significant is Aragorn's description of them as:


Quote:
... work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor.
This foreshadows the use to which these blades will eventually be put by Merry and Pippin, particularly Merry. There can be no doubt that Aragorn made the right choice in taking them with hope of returning them.
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Old 11-24-2004, 01:23 AM   #5
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Just a brief allusion back to Aldarion's suggestion that Legolas and Gimli would have had the skills to compose such a song on the spot. I would heartily concur. The key factor here would not be that a few contemporary entertainers possess this ability even today, but rather the very nature of Middle-earth and how learning and story is passed on in a traditional culture.

This world is so different than ours. It is a culture where oral tradition holds equal or even greater weight than that which is written. Many things would be memorized and passed on orally from one generation to the next. In such a setting, most people would have had a small stock of funereal rites and songs in their memory that could be adapted and tweeked to fit a particular situation. They would draw upon this in the same way that I would automatically go to my library and find a particular book of poems that would contain something with meaning for a given situation.

It's also interesting to consider that, by all rational standards, it was a terrible mistake for the "good guys" to be standing about singing while the Orcs are dragging the captured Hobbits further and further away. But as badly as the company needed to take off after the kidnapped Hobbits, it was even more essential that they show and define who they are. Unlike the Orcs who let their comrades die without giving them a second thought, Aragorn and his companions take time to show respect and honor for those who have fallen, even if it puts them further behind the kidnappers. To gain time by disregarding a fundamental principle--that of respect for an individual life--is not something Tolkien could countenance in his "heroes".
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Old 11-24-2004, 03:59 AM   #6
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Post #12 re:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark 12_30
when on the bench we raised up our boast,
saviors in hall, about hard battle;
Now may he who would be bold be tested.
You've got a point, sure

Cf with the Council of Elrond A/B bickering:

Quote:
B: Mayhap the Sword-that-was-Broken may still stem the tide – if the hand that wields it has inherited not an heirloom only, but the sinews of the Kings of Men.'
A:`Who can tell?' But we will put it to the test one day.'
B:`May the day not be too long delayed,' said Boromir
Yes, I know that it is Boromir who does the boasting, but he does it, in a way, in Aragorn's stead - the passage would have been weaker if it were Aragorn to boast an ability to 'stem the tide', but it would not have been less plausible. It would be more so, in a sense. As it stands, it underlies Aragorn's calm confidence (as opposed to movie Aragorn, who would not be so calm about 'testing day'). But Boromir acts as is a warrior's way - he puts into Aragorn's mouth words he would expect from his equal - from another warrior, and the answer is both 'right' and 'wrong' - it is wrong that it doubts itself (who can tell), but in this doubt reveals more than a mere warrior in Aragorn (i.e. one without assurance, on trust (estel) ready to make battle) , but is 'right' in a sense that boast to 'put it to the test' is a 'right' warrior answer.

I suppose, following mark, that similar interchanges may have been a-plenty along the road.
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Old 11-24-2004, 11:06 AM   #7
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HerenIstarion: You make a good point. I think that Shippey discusses the 'one day we shall put it to the test' formula in connection with that passage.

Quote:
Yes, I know that it is Boromir who does the boasting, but he does it, in a way, in Aragorn's stead - the passage would have been weaker if it were Aragorn to boast an ability to 'stem the tide'
Yes. I wonder if there is perhaps more significance in the point you raise than at first meets the eye. Are there instances in northern epics like this one - where one character effectively makes the boast for another? I can't think of any in what I've read, but I'm certainly not an expert. For that matter, it's hard to think of instances of humility in those works. Aragorn is indeed confident and proud, but he is also, I think, humble in what may be a peculiarly modern sense. I think that this is one way in which Tolkien's heroic ideal differs from the Norse or Anglo-Saxon or even Homeric ideal.

Of course, one's interpretation of those ideals has some relavance. I recall that in the essay "Turin's Ofermod", Richard West discusses Tolkien's interpretation of the word "ofermod" found in "The Battle of Maldon". The word may be translated "overmood", "overboldness". Many or most scholars read the word as one of praise for Beorhtnoth and as reflecting the heroic ideal of the Anglo-Saxons. Tolkien, on the other hand, read it as expressing fault. Now I don't know enough about "The Battle of Maldon" or Anglo-Saxon literature in general to make a reasonable guess as to which view is correct. But the disagreement suggests that Tolkien's version of the northern heroic ideal may in fact have differed from the truth about it.

In a way, then, one could see Boromir as representing the old ideal, the Anglo-Saxon ideal, which is giving way (as it must) to Aragorn, the modern, perhaps Christianized, ideal. It is hard to imagine an Anglo-Saxon epic in which it would not be thought a wholly admirable thing to take the Ring and to use it against the enemy; the idea that power can corrupt and that valour in arms may not be the best course seems distinctly modern. LotR, then, could be viewed as a work that shows a shift in the heroic paradigm, if you will, somewhat like "Beowulf" or, I don't know, American Graffiti - not, perhaps, an intra-Legendarium shift, but rather a real world one.
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