Those of Mortal Descent in the Undying Lands

[Fingolfin II]

Some good ideas Dûrbelethwen, but I disagree with your theory. Let me say why:

Another point (though I admit a shaky one) is why would Bilbo and Sam sail to the Undying lands late in life if they were going to die soon anyway. Particularly Bilbo for I do not see a reason why he could have not died in Rivendell, I am sure the remaining Elves there would have given him a very nice funeral.

As well as the reasons given by Rinfanawen, Bilbo and Sam had suffered a lot- they both bore the Ring, albeit Sam only bore it for a very short time. They felt it's effects (Bilbo became very attached to the Ring and Sam saw himself as the 'conquering gardener' in the world) and were thus permitted to travel to Tol Eressea. The Undying Lands were a 'paradise' away from Middle-Earth and a resting place for both immortals and mortals like Frodo, Sam, Bilbo and Gimli.

Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 246

Dûrbelethwen, you said-

In one of the letters Professor Tolkien clearly states that Tuor was given elf immortality just as Luthian was given human mortality.

Tuor was given elven immortality because of his love of the Noldor and his services to Ulmo. However, this does not necessarily mean that the Hobbits and Gimli will be given immortality just because they inhabit the Undying Lands. In the Akallabeth, somewhere I recall that the messengers of Manwe said that even if the Numenoreans lived in Valinor, they would die the quicker like 'moths exposed to a light too bright' or something along those lines. In short, Tuor was a special case and Tolkien himself said that Frodo, Sam, Gimli and Bilbo would die-

I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' of free will, and leave the world.- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 154

This quote above is the next part of the letter which you used as an example and I believe, proves my point about Tuor being a special case.

Also-

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 325

That seems pretty conclusive to me. Thanks to Legolas' FAQ Article, which provided me with the quotes from Tolkien's letters, so that I didn't have to look them up myself .

A final point is in the appendice the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. At the end of his life Aragorn told Arwen to leave for the Undying Lands now that would soon be dead. It would be safe to assume this is because he wanted her to take back her immortality.

Arwen was also another 'special case'. She and her brothers had the choice of mortality or immortality because of their descent through Elrond's side. She chose mortality on Cerin Amroth, but after Aragorn died she had the chance to repent as you said, and take back her immortality. However, if she went Valinor, she wouldn't be able to come back and be mortal- she couldn't chop and change. As she said, her 'choice was made long ago' and the gift of going to the Undying Lands she gave to Frodo. So, Arwen had a choice- she was a special case. She chose mortality and died.

[Legolas]

A final point is in the appendice the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. At the end of his life Aragorn told Arwen to leave for the Undying Lands now that would soon be dead. It would be safe to assume this is because he wanted her to take back her immortality.

This is because Aragorn did not fully understand the situation - Arwen was a half-elf, and was given the right to choose her fate. When she chose to be mortal when her father left for Aman, she was making a permanent choice. There was no turning back for her.

As Fingolfin II has said, I've shown Tolkien's explanations of what happens to Frodo, Sam, Bilbo, and Gimli - they all die eventually. Aman is place for Frodo, Sam, and Bilbo to find peace in their life without the Ring, and finally rest. The quotes you've read about exceptions - Tuor and Luthien - are correct, but, as stated in some of those quotes, these are the only cases where the fundamental race/fate of a person is changed.

You can read that article here with the quotes from letters 154, 246, and 325.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

It would seem to me a rather cruel fate to leave Frodo, Sam and Bilbo alive forever in Valinor since that would deny them their final reward of dying and passing on to the next stage of existence. Continued life, unending existence, is a curse: the Nazgul being the best example of this, and to a lesser extent Gollum. But even the Elves bear this out -- it's their 'immortal' tie to the physical world that dooms them to things like Feanor's oath and the 'long defeat'. Beings who have life eternal (in this world) are doomed to share this world's fate.

I would hope for much more than that as a final reward for the Ring-bearers!

(I am, however, convinced that Frodo was still alive when Sam arrived in the West, and they were reunited once more in this life, for a time.)

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Legolas

This is because Aragorn did not fully understand the situation - Arwen was a half-elf, and was given the right to choose her fate. When she chose to be mortal when her father left for Aman, she was making a permanent choice. There was no turning back for her.

I agree that Arwen was making a permament choice when she chose mortality. She could not simply sail to Valinor following Aragorn's death and reclaim her immortality.

Bur, assuming that there was a boat to take her and with the grace of the Valar, it would, I suppose, have been possible for her to sail to Valinor to see her father and mother one last time before she died the mortal death that she had chosen.

[Mithalwen]

I lost my original reply to this, the gist of which was that I thought that, particularly in the case of Bilbo and Frodo, the passing into the west was in order to enable them to make a "good death" and was a reflection of Tolkien's Catholicism. Bilbo's life has been unnaturally stretched by the ring whereas Frodo's has effectively been shortened. They are granted a spell in Aman to find peace and reconcile themselves mentally with their unusual lives. Frodo and Bilbo both go through stages of dying that patients with a terminal prognosis go through prematurely. If you look at this list you can see several paralels:

http://www.focusonals.com/developmen...nd_of_life.htm

IE They tidy up their legal affairs, pass on their story in the form of the red book, withdraw from their circle of friends (Bilbo, initially by going to RIvendell) and have reached a level of acceptance. In a sense for them, the West is a hospice. Bilbo's I think would be short, but Frodo I think might hold on for Sam ....

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I think I would like to point something out.

This adds to the first post, in that I also agree that in some form or another, the mortals who were accepted into Valinor gained immortality.

In every case in the Lord of the Rings of mortals given entrance to the Blessed Realm, that privilege was given to them by an immortal.

This is very easily recognizeable in Frodo's case.

Arwen literally gave him her immortality.

This was represented in the form of a symbol - the jewel that she gave him. She foresook her immortality, to remain in Middle Earth, and that left a slot open on the last cruise ship to Valinor, so to speak.

Now ... that was the case for Frodo. But it could be that this afforded all the Ringbearers with this chance to go.

I've heard somewhere (and this is very vague, and probably unsubstantiated) that Bilbo was able to go, because Thranduil foresook going into the west, and remained in Middle Earth, where his great store of wealth, rivaling those of the great elven lords in Middle Earth, in the elder days, was, content to stay.

He really thought Bilbo was an amazing fellow, and was the one who named him Elf Friend if I'm not wrong ... after Bilbo took such a huge step in solving the dilemma between Thorin and the people of the Desolation of Smaug, and smuggled the Arkenstone to them.

I have NO clue where I heard that. Maybe my old English teacher mentioned it.

But, that doesn't explain Sam, or Gimli. Although Tolkien made a point of saying that Gimli was a very special circumstance, and that no one had ever seen a friendship of the sort that he and Legolas had. (In a strictly platonic way, by the way).

[Legolas]

Immortality cannot be "given" to someone else. Not even Manwe, King of Arda, can give or take immortality; only Eru himself has the ability to change the fundamental kind (and he only did so twice - Luthien and Tuor). Thus, Frodo and company were to die in Aman:

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

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I've heard somewhere (and this is very vague, and probably unsubstantiated) that Bilbo was able to go, because Thranduil foresook going into the west,

Tolkien never said anything like this.