LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 10 - The Breaking of the Fellowship

[Rimbaud]

Is Boromir addicted to the ring, or is he addicted to his mission of bringing salvation to his country?

This question has another level, I think. It seems that the Ring does not create the desire for itself within others; rather, and to be carelessly analogous, it is a 'mood-exacerbater' much like alocohol for instance, playing on a pre-existant mood, or in this case desire.

The main reason it holds less dominion over the Hobbits is their fundamental lack of megalomania; that weak desire for power and wealth that does reside within Frodo/Bilbo, is eventually that with which the Ring works.

So: the Ring, as it does not come into contact with Boromir, is rather lucky. For Boromir is desperately searching for it, although he would not realise this. The weapon, the solution, that which would realise his ambition to save his homeland - that is the chink through which the Ring wanders.

But the further question is: when? When did Boromir's respectable desire for his country's salvation, to use the word, twist into the more sordid want we encounter later? At what stage was the chink exploited?

I'm using this line of argument rather as a counter to the straight 'addiction' line, which I think underestimates the inherent similarities and indistinct boundaries between what we might perceive as natural and reasonable desires, for ourselves and others, and those desires one associates with the device itself.

[Rimbaud]

Depends whether you mean Heroes capitalised, or the true ones, who are necessarily reluctant.

[drigel]

Rim,

Hero in the traditional mythological sense was what I always thought the author was bringing out in B. Just my interpretation of course

I would agree with you on the addiction analogy. It seemed to me that this line of thinking a little askew in the 70's, when (at least in my circles) it was prevelent. Like addiction, the essense of the quest is about the struggle that is within us, but to me, thats where the comparison ends.

[HerenIstarion]

when? When did Boromir's respectable desire for his country's salvation, to use the word, twist into the more sordid craving

To and fro, I suppose, as any temptation for any particular member of the Fallen Humanity (and Boromir seems rather a good instance of the Fallen Humanity - still retaining some virtues, but subject to Long Defeat in the long run unless helped by 'Chance') is likely to recur, beaten now and again but never beaten ultimately. Another instance being Frodo in Sammath Naur, giving in to it finally, with 'Chance' helping to throw the ring into the fire. But hush, I'm ahead of things here. We are not discussing movies either, but I am tempted in my turn to bring in PJ, and I submit to temptation - the slope where Boromir picks up the Ring which Frodo let fall - the good illustration of temptation temporarily overcome!

It goes like 'I want the ring to save my people', the phrase being a substitute for inner 'I want the ring for the power it will give me to save my people', when real stress should fall on the power, but tempted person stresses on save my people, lulling himself into belief that what he is after is, basically, good. The idea of 'saving people' than may add up to addiction.

Rigthly noted, person is addicted rather to thing he desires through the Ring rather than ring itself. At first, the Ring is means to an end, even if it tends to replace the goal pursued at the first stage with its own 'precious' self in the end. Even Gollum at times exhibits ability to see other end besides Ring as a Ring:

See, my precious: if we has it, then we can escape, even from Him, eh? Perhaps we grows very strong, stronger than Wraiths. Lord Sméagol? Gollum the Great? The Gollum! Eat fish every day, three times a day; fresh from the sea. Most Precious Gollum! Must have it. We wants it, we wants it, we wants it! '

At some point he wishes 'escape from him' and 'fresg fish' as an end the Ring is means to, though soon falling back to the Ring itself

But hush, I'm ahead of things again

What I should give a quick remark to is, to a point, 'eucatastrophic' sense of the chapter towards its end, though minor, and imperfect 'eucatastrophe'. Indeed - the bottle neck of hard choice is over, there is resolution - and Sam and Frodo, together (boat part, where Sam forces himself upon Frodo, I still can't read without some joyful shivers down my spine). And such a resolution is achieved thanks to Boromir giving in to temptation! Or, once again, another principle used by Tolkien as a corner stone of his world (besides mentioned in the previous chapters 'thus shall I sleep better' principle) - And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

scattered thoughts, mainly, I hope you followed, kind ladies and gentlemen.

cheers

[drigel]

lovin this thread keep it up

[The Saucepan Man]

I was using "addiction" in the sense of something which provokes an intense craving which is difficult to resist, and which can lead to a dangerous obsession. Addictive substances (caffeine, nicotine etc) provoke this craving by offering us something that we desire, namely stimulation of the pleasure receptors. The Ring also offers its "victims" something that they desire. In Boromir's case, it offers him the power to defend his land. We also see its influence in this regard later, with Sam, although he is able to resist it (for the reasons that you state). So, I basically agree with what you say, Rimbaud, although I do not think that it counters the "addiction line".

As I have said, however, "addiction" is only one aspect of the nature of the Ring's power.

[Rimbaud]

Aye. 'Counter' was possibly the wrong word. I mean to augment, if not reposit, the argument so that it is not fully about the power of the substance/Ring and instead equally refers to the pre-existing exploitable condition. Having a good understanding of the true nature of addiction helps

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

I'm curious about this; do you think maybe you could expand on it?

I don't think it's silly, but quite possible. The thought that he might be followed must have at least entered his mind, even though Aragorn assured him that he would be alone. I don't think he was trying to tempt anyone, but he might have wondered if any of his companions would be tempted nonetheless.

As the phantom said, yes, I don't think that Frodo would be the sort of hobbit to tempt his fellow Walkers. I think using the word "tempt" is not appropriate for this...I can't think of something subtler and less deliberate. But that's the point...he was trying to see if anyone would talk to him, try to give him counsel, dissuade him from going to Mordor, or eventually try to bear the burden that was appointed to him. He knew what to do, but he was just afraid. So why not look to his companions for encouragement and assurance that he won't be left alone? I don't think that as he walked alone, he would find something in his heart to finally nudge him. No...he needed someone to do that. And what could be more effective than finally realizing that one of your companions has been "seduced" by the Ring for whatever reason? (I would suppose it's something like the marshmallow test: if you take the Ring now, or at the very least show desire for it, you would be deprived of what could have been the best for everyone.)

And Frodo doing this is not at all impossible. In Lothlorien, he has offered the Ring to Galadriel. I'm sure he knew at the time that there was no way Galadriel could destroy the Ring herself. There was only one thing she could do with it: wield it and use it in some way against Sauron. Yet Frodo knew from the Council of Elrond that anyone who wields the Ring would be corrupted and, in the event that Galadriel manage to defeat Sauron, she would just replace his place as the Dark Lord. I might be making heavy accusations here, but Frodo could be using the Ring to see through others' minds and hearts, in a sense; knowing what power the Ring could offer, he uses it as "bait" to find out how far others would go to get what they desire.

I believe the effect that Boromir's action had on Frodo's decision is just spur-of-the-moment. Later in the chapter he tells Sam:

If they catch me here, I shall have to argue and explain, and I shall never have the heart or the chance to get off.

One last thing. Speaking of the power of the Ring, I am reminded of a Bible verse, from John 11:17 (NIV)...

Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall.

How come this doesn't seem to be the case for the Ring? If someone powerful enough uses it against Sauron, the Dark Lord would fall...only to be replaced by another "Dark Lord"! So in effect, evil is never ruined. And that's scary.

[Formendacil]

I read this chapter before the long weekend and find that if I had sharp impressions this time around, they are dulled by the passage of the weekend. AND I find that, despite some scintillating vintage Downsian discussion on this thread, it hasn't prompted me to add anything.

As a point of comparison with "The Great River," not nearly as much happens in "The Breaking of the Fellowship"--despite being the last chapter of The Fellowship and a key moment in Frodo's journey, it's not a chapter with much surface action--like "A Conspiracy Unmasked," it's a fairly short timeframe in a fairly limited location. That's also a fairly good comparison in terms of its effect on the immediately following chapters--but we get scenes here that have no real parallel there: Boromir's "madness," Frodo's simultaneously internal/external battle on Amon Hen, and Sam's dogged insistence on following (the best part of which is Sam's foreknowledge of what's going to happen--next to him, the other members of the Fellowship are clueless). None of this is "action," like orcs attacking them or shooting the rapids or Legolas taking down a Nazgûl, but it's dramatic.