LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 10 - The Breaking of the Fellowship

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

I, for one, am looking forward to the continuing discussion on Two Towers and on through the trilogy. In fact, when we're all done I hope that we can continue with The Hobbit or my personal favorite, the Silmarilion. That, however, is a discussion for some future time.

Several things jumped out at me in this chapter. First, when Frodo wore the ring at the seat of Amon Hen, he almost had a showdown with Sauron right then and there. When he removed the ring the description is of a shadow passing over, missing Amon Hen and continuing westward. However, when he makes up his mind to continue on alone he puts the ring back on without drawing again the attention of they Eye. I haven't yet figured out when the ring draws him and when it doesn't. After all, Sam puts on the ring in Cirith Ungol, on the very borders of Mordor.

Another thing that jumped out at me was the wisdom of Master Samwise. I think that everyone will agree that Sam is the true hero of this book. After all, Frodo only had to put up with the ring. Sam had to put up with Frodo!

Anyway, everyone's sitting around the fire wondering what Frodo's going to choose, and it's so obvious to Sam. Some might argue that this is because Sam is so close to Frodo, but I don't think that's the case, yet. Before the journey, Sam was only a servant - the gardener. Maybe a trusted servant, but certainly not the confidant he becomes. I point to the final birthday party as evidence - Merry, Pippen and Fatty are there, but not Sam. I think that the Professor is giving us an insight to his real thoughts concerning "high-" and "low-" born people. Namely, don't discount the opinion/experience/thoughts of someone just because they don't come from good breeding.

Finally, I thought that the tempting of Boromir is another scene that translated well onto the screen. My only disappointment was when Frodo disppeared at the end, and seemed to vanish from Boromir's grasp at the same time. Either way, Sean Bean acted it very well. (I have, by the way, recanted on the tempting of Galadrial scene - I watched it again last week when it was on UPN (on my birthday, thank you very much), and was most disappointed..)

[drigel]

Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring! The two powers strove in him.

Was this other power Frodo's internal voice or something else? I always thought that this was the point where Gandalf came back to ME. In my mind, here was the reason for Gandalfs return - this exact point in Frodo's dire need for help. The rest of G's deeds were worthy, but maybe this particular instance was the clincher in the decision to send him back..?..?

[Firefoot]

Anyway, everyone's sitting around the fire wondering what Frodo's going to choose, and it's so obvious to Sam. Some might argue that this is because Sam is so close to Frodo, but I don't think that's the case, yet.

Which is exactly what I am going to argue. I like your points, but I do think it is largely because Sam is so close to Frodo, and also because Sam is so observant of other people's characters. He doesn't talk a lot, but he takes everything in and he really figures people out. He is particularly protective of Frodo and has known him for a long time, so this characteristic of understanding people is very pronounced in his closeness to Frodo. Also, Frodo says to himself, "But surely they will understand. Sam will." Frodo knows Sam nearly as well as Sam knows Frodo, and he knows that Sam understands him. Sam is a very smart character with a lot of common sense - he just tends not to show it so much in the company of all these 'high' and 'fine' folk.

Something that just occurred to me while reading what other people have had to say about the visions Frodo had on Amon Hen. Perhaps this is why Aragorn desired to go there so much, as he said in the previous chapter:

"Do you not know, Borormir, or do you choose to forget the North Stiar, and the high seat upon Amon Hen, that were made in the days of the great kings? I at least have a mind ot stand in that high place again, before I decide my further course. There, maybe, we shall see some sign that will guide us."

It would appear that these 'magical' qualities of the high seat of Amon Hen were known, at least in Rivendell and possibly Minas Tirith. Aragorn also mentions the seat was "made in the days of the great kings," so I would tend to think that either the Númenoreans or possibly some of the very early kings (i.e. Elendil, Isildur, Anarion) "imparted some special quality to the location" (as Esty so aptly put it).

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Esty

I wonder, is it the location that has ‘magical’ properties, enabling anyone who comes there to see? ... Does the Ring have something to do with Frodo’s expanded sight?

Yes. The mountains remind me of palantirs and mirrors; you can either relax and look, or you can search, bending it to your will. I think searching is much harder and more challenging.

I wonder, is it the location that has ‘magical’ properties, enabling anyone who comes there to see?

Yes, Esty, I think so; but you have to know that you should "look". A failure to look will result in seeing nothing. Good sight is especially helpful for those who know to look.

Does the Ring have something to do with Frodo’s expanded sight?

Again, yes. It's good to be on a high place if you want to 'see' far; but the one with the best eyesight will still see furthest. Just as Legolas would see the most of the fellowship, physically, so also those who are so gifted-- Aragorn and Frodo for instance-- will see well.

Why did Aragorn not see much that day, where Frodo saw much? It seems to me that Aragorn was in a mood to see what he wanted to know, but in too much of a hurry to wait patiently and strive for it; whereas Frodo came with few expectations, except curiosity and need.

I wonder whether losing Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw significantly eroded the wisdom of Gondor; it seems that one can be caught by Sauron either on the hill or in the palantir. I wonder if the hills could be used by more than one person in harmony.

Too bad Amon Lhaw and its "hearing" was never explored in the trology. I wonder what that was like. What might one hear?

Frodo might have had an advantage there, too; wasn't his hearing improved as well?

Tempting to try and hear the music of the Ainur.

(ps. Firefoot, good points on Frodo & Sam.)

[Boromir88]

Amon Hen holds a definate importance in this chapter. We all know it is the "Hill of Seeing," and Frodo's vision is upon this. I think there is definate some sort of "magical quality" in this hill, as Firefoot has already pointed out, it is atleast important to Aragorn. Frodo's vision stretches from the Misty Mountains to Barad-dur, that is over half of Middle-earth. Obviously one sitting upon Amon Hen can't "literally" see from the Misty Mountains to Barad-dur, instead it comes in a "vision," and that could be the true magical quality of Amon Hen.

Makes me sort of wonder about Amon Lhaw, the hill of hearing, hmmm. Not much was said on Amon Lhaw, but just makes you wonder, what things could happen upon the "hill of hearing."

Edit: Also, we get some Tolkien repetition. FOTR Book I ends at Amon Sul (Hill of the wind), ends with Frodo putting on the ring and getting wounded. FOTR Book II, ends (well last chapter of the book) with Amon Hen. Again Frodo is in trouble and again he puts on the Ring. Is this repetition to forbode later on Frodo will put on the Ring when he is in trouble...hint hint, Mount Doom. There's even more connections, both chapters end with the "flight of Frodo." Frodo's flight to the Ford, then Frodo's flight away from the company, into Mordor. And both times he is accompanied by ONE person, first it's an Elf, 2nd time it's by his soon to be best friend who just so happens to admire elves. There are a lot of parallels between the end of Book I and Book II, but I still wonder, what Tolkien is trying to do with these parallels. Is it to show repetition, and the tendancy of Frodo, to "flee" and use the ring when he get's into trouble?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Reading this chapter, I also remembered that Aragorn talked about wanting to be on Amon Hen in the previous chapter - but he never gets there, does he? At least it is not told in this chapter - he is heading up the hill when Sam decides to go back and find Frodo at the boats. We lose Aragorn's point-of-view there, and it almost feels like a continuity mistake to me - he who wanted to stop there for the specific purpose of standing on the Hill of Seeing doesn't get to do so.

[mark12_30]

Actually, Esty, he does. When he sprints and leaves Sam behind, he gets to the top of the Hill; he goes to the Seat. But he quickly leaves frustrated. He is just too worried about Frodo, too flummoxed, to really get anything out of it.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ah yes, he does - but that's in the next chapter (next book, even)...

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

Originally Posted by Aldarion

Some might argue that this is because Sam is so close to Frodo, but I don't think that's the case, yet.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Which is exactly what I am going to argue.... He (Sam) is particularly protective of Frodo and has known him for a long time, so this characteristic of understanding people is very pronounced in his closeness to Frodo. Also, Frodo says to himself, "But surely they will understand. Sam will." Frodo knows Sam nearly as well as Sam knows Frodo, and he knows that Sam understands him. Sam is a very smart character with a lot of common sense - he just tends not to show it so much in the company of all these 'high' and 'fine' folk.

Sorry to steer the conversation in a different direction, I think I'm going to contend for my position a little more

I re-read this chapter again last night, and I think that the interaction between Frodo and Sam is still characterized between a master and a trusted servant. In many ways, Sam never really grows beyond this in the whole series, at least not in his speech and subservient attitude. I point to his brief time as ring-bearer in Cirith Ungol. He doesn't get far before he decides his place is by his Master's side. Sam certainly knows his master well - has learned over the last several weeks - and takes his responsibilities seriously.

Meanwhile, Frodo's treatment of Sam is still of a trusted servant - one that he is coming to love as a brother. While I don't think that Sam ever gets over the rolls that they played in the Shire, by this time Frodo is beginning to.

I wonder if this point of view is so contested here because in contemporary culture we find the idea of a master/servant relationship somewhat repulsive.

Bado go Eru, Aldarion

[Boromir88]

I get it now Davem, I think you're onto something in saying the external vs. internal "voices and eyes" of Frodo here. I think in every person rests a battle of "good and evil," or "good conscious and bad conscious." Boromir, atleast in this chapter, is a representation of Frodo's "evil desires," so in a way he does represent the personified evil's of Frodo. Also,

Originally posted by Davem:
Frodo may not have realised he has the kind of desires you're attributing to Boromir, but I can't help suspecting they are already there, deep down.

I think all we have to look at is as early on as in the Shire. Frodo can't bring himself throwing it into the fire. So, already, IN THE SHIRE, he can't bring himself to throwing it away, how is he going to do it when he gets to Mordor, sort of makes you wonder.

[Bêthberry]

Much as these thoughts are intriguing, I'm going to weigh in here on the negative side. If Boromir respresent anything in this "not an allegory", he represents the easy way in which the Ring can appeal to human desires.

Against delay. Against the way that seems easiest.

In terms of the story, I think readers should be thankful that Boromir does not know Frodo as well as Sam does. Sam understands Frodo's hesitation or fear of doing what he knows he must. Boromir does not. Boromir believes Frodo does not know what to do.

And so Boromir argues his old case of the Northern warrior.

We shall fall in battle valiantly.

Boromir's is the way of arrogance and self-assurance that men can know absolutely what is the right thing to do. The characters who are arrayed on the side of "the good", Aragorn, Gandalf, Frodo, are known very much for their lack of complete confidence, for their hesitation, for their willingness for reflect upon their ways, for their fear that they might not do the right thing.

Boromir remains the voice of the arrogance of the race of man

It is by our own folly that the Enemy will defeat us," cried Boromir. "How it angers me! Fool! Obstinate fool! Running willfully to death and ruining our cause. If any mortals have claim to the Ring, it is the men of Numenor, and not Halflings. It is not yours save by unhappy chance. It might have been mine.Give it to me!"

It is, however, absolutely essential for readers to have this scene and for that reason I think Boromir is pivotal to the story. Tolkien shows his readers what the effect of the Ring is, not on one of the great elves or wizards, but on the sorry race of mankind, especially in the denigration of the hobbits. I think it is more important to Tolkien's theme to understand what he means by the seductive powers of evil than to argue a Manichean split, which presumbably for him was herisy.

What I don't really understand--and I think someone else on this thread has already mentioned this point--is why Frodo puts the ring backon. Assuredly it is so he can pass by the other members of the Fellowship without being seen, but it appears almost too easy and unexplored a decision. It is ominous to me.

[Firefoot]

Aldarion -

I'm not arguing the master/servant relationship between Frodo and Sam (It's certainly there, and I don't have any problems with it); I'm just saying there is more to it than that. I think we might be on the same side of this issue, as I don't really disagree with anything you've said. You pointed out that you didn't think that Sam's understanding of Frodo was because of their closesness (or at least, that is what I think you are arguing with me), so why is it that you think Sam was able to figure out Frodo's intent?

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

You pointed out that you didn't think that Sam's understanding of Frodo was because of their closesness (or at least, that is what I think you are arguing with me), so why is it that you think Sam was able to figure out Frodo's intent?

Here's the rub of our disagreement, although I offer my response with caveats (see below). My initial point was that Tolkein was presenting us with a contrast between the wisdom of the "Wise", which fails to understand the answer in this case, and the wisdom of the "Simple" as represented by Sam. Tolkien is saying to me, here, not to look down on the wisdom of this "simple" and dismiss it as that would be prideful. Aragorn responds correctly to Sam in this case by acknowledging that Sam "has the right of it."

Okay, having said all that, I re-read this section last night, and I can certainly see where the idea of 'relational wisdom" comes from - Sam even thinks to himself how much better he knows his master than any of the others. Let's just say that my initial posistion is much weaker in my own mind now than it was yesterday.

[the phantom]

So, already, IN THE SHIRE, he can't bring himself to throwing it away, how is he going to do it when he gets to Mordor, sort of makes you wonder.

This is something I always try to point out. In our discussion a couple of chapters ago I said this about Boro's desire for the Ring-

I'm not sure I agree that his desire was "irrational".

This is irrational-> expecting a hobbit to safely enter a heavily guarded land, travel for miles and miles without getting caught, and destroy a ring he could not willingly throw into his little fire at home.

To Boromir this idea seems much more irrational than attempting to use the Ring.

Sometime in the past year (can't remember when) I came to the realization that I was Boromir. In other words, had I been inserted into Lord of the Rings as every character, the things I would have done and said as Boromir would have deviated less from the original character than if I were inserted for Frodo, Elrond, or anyone else.

So it is now my sacred duty to defend Boromir's words and actions.

This next part might swing off-topic a bit, but bear with me- for I am fulfilling my sacred duty.

Boromir remains the voice of the arrogance of the race of man

When I look up "arrogant" I see this-
having or showing feelings of unwarranted importance out of overbearing pride
proceeding from undue claims or self-importance
giving one's self an undue degree of importance
Consistently thinking you are right or that others are wrong is not necessarily arrogance. Notice the words "unwarranted" and "undue" in the definition.

Here's a little example-> Imagine that you are the best wine-taster in the world and that you have just taken a sip of a wine that you recognize immediately as a Montelena Cabernet 1978. Several other wine tasters say "I do believe this is a 1988 Rayas Chateauneuf Du Pape".

You say "You're wrong and I'm right" and when the answer is revealed you are, indeed, correct.

Were you arrogant? No, you were right and you knew it.

I am currently working on a group research project at school and I refused to do our project a certain way, even though every person in my group voted against me. The way I wanted to do it is better and they just didn't know enough to understand why.

But I put my foot down and they finally gave in (after calling me "selfish", "arrogant", and all sorts of other things). But now that the project is nearly complete they have all said "I'm sorry, you were right, and I'm glad we did it your way".

Was I being arrogant? No, I was right and I knew it.

You see, many people misunderstand characters such as Boromir because they don't think the same. I think it's possible that Tolkien himself didn't completely understand Boromir, he just knew that some people acted like him. This means that Boromir's words and actions would be written, for the most part, correctly but his inner motivations and thoughts would be guesses.

(Anyone who has tried to write a character different from themselves should definitely understand this dilemma.)

Anywho... everything that is logical suggests that the quest to destroy the Ring was crazy, where as using the Ring- who had ever actually tried to use the Ring against Sauron? No one. There was no precedent set for believing that using the Ring's power would for sure corrupt an individual. There was no Ring Manual that said "If you attempt to use the Ring's power the Ring will make you turn to evil".

What Elrond and Gandalf said was not as provable or logical as this-> if you walk into Mordor with a homing beacon you're going to get caught.

So, as you can see, there's a rational reason not to do it the way they did, and the reason not to do it Boromir's way was not gospel-truth at all.

I've gone on this tirade just to say this- Boromir's actions can be explained without defining him as arrogant or corrupted. I'm sitting in a computer lab right now completely free from the Ring's influence, and yet I tell you that I would have tried to take the Ring from Frodo like Boromir did.

is why Frodo puts the ring backon. Assuredly it is so he can pass by the other members of the Fellowship without being seen, but it appears almost too easy and unexplored a decision. It is ominous to me.

Hmm... I've never even thought about it, but you know... it is a bit weird. I mean, right after being pinned down (almost, anyway) by Sauron and saving himself by taking off the Ring, you'd think he'd be scared to put it on again. Unless... he knew that Sauron located him so easily only because he was on a magic hill. Ya know... kind of like looking into a palantir when Sauron's got one too.

(whew- this was a long post- a pat on the back to anyone who read the whole thing- thanks for putting up with me)

[Boromir88]

Interesting thoughts phantom. I took that personality test here on the downs and was most like Boromir. Interestingly enough the one that I was "next closest to" was Sam. Sam is definately thought of as the most loyal companion to the Fellowship, and is Frodo's best friend, in most regards he is almost exactly opposite as Sam. So, why then would I be most like Boromir but also close to Sam. Well here's some traits I see that Sam and Boromir hold.

They both don't like running away from a fight. Sam is the more protective one, and would lay his life on the line for Frodo, Boromir will lay his life on the line for Gondor. They are both loyal. Sam to Frodo, Boromir to Denethor. Also, was Boromir not a loyal member of the Fellowship? Yes, he went crazy on Frodo, but did he also not say we men of Minas Tirith do not abandon friends in need? So, despite all the arguments Boromir still considered these people his "friends," and travelling all these long miles together I'm sure they came pretty close to one another.
The Ring incident, as I go back to an earlier point, I don't think Boromir was in control of what he was doing. There's this battle, within Boromir, even down to his last moments of "sanedom." Once he goes crazy, he doesn't know what he has done, "What have I said? What have I done?" He literally "wipes the tears from his eyes," so that right there I think should show Boromir is good of heart, and he wasn't in control of his actions during this brief lapse of madness.

Good points about "arrogancy." I see Boromir has this "swagger" about him, he's got his "pride." But it's good pride, it's not pompous or arrogant. He's a very patriotic person, and I think all his bragging of Minas Tirith isn't arrogant, it's his own patriotic pride.

As an example, its like me saying the United States is the greatest place in the world to live. Now, maybe somebody from France, Germany, England, Australia....etc would surely disagree with me. But, I don't find this as arrogant? I find this as pride in one's country, I won't go into a big debate about how free we are, and all the great things, I think you get the connection. There is a difference between being patriotic and being arrogant. I think me saying the US is the best nation in the world, is no more arrogant then Boromir bragging non-stop about the greatness of the men of his country.