LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 10 - The Breaking of the Fellowship

[Boromir88]

Ahhh, here is the true breaking of the Fellowship, the destruction of this waning friendship.

First off, I have a few comments to Esty, who again has done a wonderful job getting the discussion started, and has brought up some good ones to discuss, I thank yee Esty.

“A madness took me, but it has passed.” Has it? I have serious doubts and think that his obsession with the Ring would not have been over, had Frodo returned.

I think we can all say that if Boromir, by some chance, met up with Frodo again and had to pass the same test, he would have again failed. But I think his closing words, he was speaking truth. A madness did pass through him, and it did pass. Now, it slipped back into his "unconsciousness," so for a time it has "passed" through him, but if he was faced with it again, it would arise again, and again he would have fallen to the ring.

I think what's interesting is Frodo is again left with the decision of "what to do?" As the ringbearer, he holds on what happens, where they go next. Frodo's first decision of going to Moria, ended in despair, ended with the death of Gandalf. Now, he's faced with that same decision, where to go? Maybe, learning from his previous error, he decides, he has to get out of the company, and I think Boromir was the final nudge Frodo needed to just do that. Boromir showed Frodo that the Ring was tearing the Fellowship apart, and Boromir was only the first to fall. The Ring saw Boromir's weakness and went after him, but how long would it take for the Ring to start bending it's will on one of the other members? Boromir made Frodo realize he wasn't safe around the Company with the Ring, and he had to get out before another member turned into a Boromir.

What's interesting though is it is Sam who goes along with Frodo. And I say this because, the Ring doesn't seem to effect Sam much. Maybe the ring sees that Sam is so simply, and loves Frodo so much, it would be hard to corrupt someone like Sam, so in steps Gollum, ahhh, now the ring has somebody to work with...this could lead to further discussions down the road.

There's one quote from Boromir's that does intrigue me, and this is when we see him first go "mad."

"It is by our own folly that the Enemy will defeat us," cried Boromir, "How it angers me! Fool! Obstinate Fool! Running wilfully to death and ruining our cause. If any mortals have claim to the Ring, it is the men of Numenor, and not Halflings. It is not yours save by unhappy chance. It might have been mine. It should be mine. Give it to me!"

This quote intrigues me, because running wilfully to death and ruining our cause. I'm sorry Boromir, I adore you, but the "cause" is to destroy the ring, and what would ruin the "cause" if by someone taking it to try to overthrow Sauron. Also, If any mortals have claim to the Ring, it is the men of Numenor, and not Halflings. Again, ok Isildur caried the Ring, but it's not his, it's nobody's but Sauron's. Secondly, sorry again Boromir, but you aren't "numenorean," you are part numenorean, but not full. Problem is at this time Boromir was truly mad and truly corrupted by the ring, so I don't think he's in control of what he's doing and here's why.

He rose and passed his hand over his eyes, dashing away the tears. "What have I said?" he cried. "What have I done..."

After Frodo leaves Boromir has no idea what he did, besides the fact that he's rubbing away the tears, and a "madness" had took him. I would have to say, that Boromir wasn't in control of what he was saying or doing, the Ring had taken control of him, it had fed his desires, took control, and when it left, the Boromir we all love, is back in control, not this "mad Boromir."

I love the tension Tolkien builds up, or maybe the foreshadowing evil.

Suddenly he awoke from his thoughts: a strange feeling came to him that something was behind him, that unfriendly ees were upoin him. He sprang up and turned; but all that he saw to his surprise was Boromir, and his face was smiling and kind.

He laid his hand on the hobbit's shoulder in friendly fashion; but Frodo felt the hand trembling with suppressed excitement. He stepped quickly away, and eyed with alarm, the tall Man, nearly twice his height and many times his match in strength.

First quote, Tolkien does leave you wonder if the "unfriendly eyes upon Frodo," are Boromir's, and it would definately point to that it was Frodo's thought of "unfriendly eyes" were Boromir's. Also, the "tall man, nearly twice his height...etc." is Frodo sort of sizing up Boromir, and saying, oh crap, this guy can beat me with two hands tied behind his back. So Frodo, being as smart as he is always keeps that "stone" between him and Boromir.

I think even in these closing moments, before Boromir's true madness, Boromir is struggling to hold on, he's struggling to resist. But Frodo felt the hand trembling with suppressed excitement. The words "trembling" and "suppressed" come out to me, that at this point, right before Boromir goes mad, is Boromir still fighting within himself to "repent." He's trying to resist the lure, he's trying to "suppress" it, and the "trembling hand" I think points out to the stress falling upon Boromir right now.

Anyway those are my thoughts, cheers.

[THE Ka]

That's really well put. (Better than i'm doing over at the LOTR Astrology project... we're un-decided as to whether he's a Pariotic Cancer or Domineering Scorpio.) Maybe you should check it out sometime.

Again wonderful description of Boromir's clouded mind at the breaking of the fellowship. Couldn't have seen it better described anywhere else.

~Another Nice Ka Post~

[davem]

At first he could see little. He seemed to be in a world of mist in which there were only shadows: the Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions: small and clear as if they were under his eyes upon a table, and yet remote. There was no sound, only bright living images. The world seemed to have shrunk and fallen silent. He was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Numenor. Eastward he looked into wide uncharted lands, nameless plains, and forests unexplored. Northward he looked, and the Great River lay like a ribbon beneath him, and the Misty Mountains stood small and hard as broken teeth. Westward he looked and saw the broad pastures of Rohan; and Orthanc, the pinnacle of Isengard, like a black spike. Southward he looked, and below his very feet the Great River curled like a toppling wave and plunged over the falls of Rauros into a foaming pit; a glimmering rainbow played upon the fume. And Ethir Anduin he saw, the mighty delta of the River, and myriads of sea-birds whirling like a white dust in the sun, and beneath them a green and silver sea, rippling in endless lines.

My first response on reading this was of how similar it is to the episode in Matthew chapter 4:

Then the devyll tooke hym up agayne and ledde hym into an excedynge hye mountayne, and shewed hym al the kyngdomes of the worlde, and the beauty of them, and sayde unto hym: all these will I geve the, iff thou wilt faull doune and worshp me. Then sayde Jesus unto hym. Avoyd Satan. For it is written, Thou shalt worshyp thy Lorde God, and hym only shalt thou serve.

(Sorry about the Tyndale translation - it was the first to hand because its my favourite).

CT points out that his father at first wasn’t sure whether the clarity of Frodo’s vision was due to the power of the seat or of the Ring, but either way Frodo’s vision is ‘magical’ or ‘psychic’. Its not the result of him simply being high up. It seems that in the final conception the hill itself enhances the viewer’s sight. My own feeling is that its something that can’t be accounted for, & is simply necessary for the effect. Tolkien needs Frodo to have this vision, so he does. The ‘vision’ itself seems threefold - first there is the vista across the land, nature perfect & for the most part unsullied (though the black spike of Isengard is present). Then there come the signs of war - we’ve moved from the ‘timeless’ world of nature to the temporal world, & the war:

But everywhere he looked he saw the signs of war. The Misty Mountains were crawling like anthills: orcs were issuing out of a thousand holes. Under the boughs of Mirkwood there was deadly strife of Elves and Men and fell beasts. The land of the Beornings was aflame; a cloud was over Moria: smoke rose on the borders of Lorien. Horsemen were galloping on the grass of Rohan; wolves poured from Isengard. From the havens of Harad ships of war put out to sea; and out of the East Men were moving endlessly: swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen upon horses, chariots of chieftains and laden wains. All the power of the Dark Lord was in motion.

Finally the vision moves into the heart of evil:

Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Baraddur, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him. And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him.

Its almost like the vision in Galadriel’s mirror: first Frodo saw

‘the Mirror cleared and he saw a twilit land. Mountains loomed dark in the distance against a pale sky. A long grey road wound back out of sight.’

Then ‘The sea rose and raged in a great storm. Then he saw against the Sun, sinking blood-red into a wrack of cloudsthe black outline of a tall ship with torn sails riding up out of the West. Then a wide river flowing through a populous city. Then a white fortress with seven towers. And then again a ship with black sails, but now it was morning again, and the water rippled with light, and a banner bearing the emblem of a white tree shone in the sun. A smoke as of fire and battle arose, ‘

Finally ‘ The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing. ‘

As I say, virtually the same vision reiterated. Why Tolkien chose to do this is another question. We have a vision of the world, followed by the appearance of Men, culminating in the vision of ultimate evil.

We do seem to be presented with Frodo’s ‘temptation’ here, & once again the old Boethian/Manichaen problem rears its head. Frodo watches the war, as if spread out on a table below him. He’s distanced from the events, looking down on them, holding the fate of the world literally in his hands. He’s an ‘outsider’, free to choose his course of action. But then he realises something - his response to the Eye:

He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring! The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger.

It seems that the ‘Voice’ & the ‘Eye’ are both within him & without, internal ‘drives’ & external ‘forces’. Or perhaps he has so ‘internalised’ the Ring & all it represents by this stage that he can’t distinguish the Ring’s response (‘Verily I come, I come to you’) from his own (‘Never, never!). Its interesting that Tolkien writes ‘The two powers strove in him’, but then instantly qualifies this by saying ‘Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring! The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented.’

How can Frodo be balanced between something within him? Perhaps for the same reason as Galadriel can say that the Eye ‘is also in my mind’. The whole vision (both visions actually) seem to be both external & internal happenings. There are two ‘wars of the Ring’, & both are summed up in this moment of vision on the Seat of Seeing. Or to be more accurate, there is a single war being fought, & it is fought both by the individual & within him.

One last point, for now, about Boromir. Was anyone else struck by how Gollum like he became in the confrontation with Frodo - moving between being friendly, almost wheedling, then haughty & threatening, & finally attacking him & then bursting into tears when he fails? You can almost see the same thing happening in Isildur. It seems that Tolkien sees this as the inevitable transformation of the personality that the Ring brings about.

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

I, for one, am looking forward to the continuing discussion on Two Towers and on through the trilogy. In fact, when we're all done I hope that we can continue with The Hobbit or my personal favorite, the Silmarilion. That, however, is a discussion for some future time.

Several things jumped out at me in this chapter. First, when Frodo wore the ring at the seat of Amon Hen, he almost had a showdown with Sauron right then and there. When he removed the ring the description is of a shadow passing over, missing Amon Hen and continuing westward. However, when he makes up his mind to continue on alone he puts the ring back on without drawing again the attention of they Eye. I haven't yet figured out when the ring draws him and when it doesn't. After all, Sam puts on the ring in Cirith Ungol, on the very borders of Mordor.

Another thing that jumped out at me was the wisdom of Master Samwise. I think that everyone will agree that Sam is the true hero of this book. After all, Frodo only had to put up with the ring. Sam had to put up with Frodo!

Anyway, everyone's sitting around the fire wondering what Frodo's going to choose, and it's so obvious to Sam. Some might argue that this is because Sam is so close to Frodo, but I don't think that's the case, yet. Before the journey, Sam was only a servant - the gardener. Maybe a trusted servant, but certainly not the confidant he becomes. I point to the final birthday party as evidence - Merry, Pippen and Fatty are there, but not Sam. I think that the Professor is giving us an insight to his real thoughts concerning "high-" and "low-" born people. Namely, don't discount the opinion/experience/thoughts of someone just because they don't come from good breeding.

Finally, I thought that the tempting of Boromir is another scene that translated well onto the screen. My only disappointment was when Frodo disppeared at the end, and seemed to vanish from Boromir's grasp at the same time. Either way, Sean Bean acted it very well. (I have, by the way, recanted on the tempting of Galadrial scene - I watched it again last week when it was on UPN (on my birthday, thank you very much), and was most disappointed..)

[drigel]

Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring! The two powers strove in him.

Was this other power Frodo's internal voice or something else? I always thought that this was the point where Gandalf came back to ME. In my mind, here was the reason for Gandalfs return - this exact point in Frodo's dire need for help. The rest of G's deeds were worthy, but maybe this particular instance was the clincher in the decision to send him back..?..?

[Firefoot]

Anyway, everyone's sitting around the fire wondering what Frodo's going to choose, and it's so obvious to Sam. Some might argue that this is because Sam is so close to Frodo, but I don't think that's the case, yet.

Which is exactly what I am going to argue. I like your points, but I do think it is largely because Sam is so close to Frodo, and also because Sam is so observant of other people's characters. He doesn't talk a lot, but he takes everything in and he really figures people out. He is particularly protective of Frodo and has known him for a long time, so this characteristic of understanding people is very pronounced in his closeness to Frodo. Also, Frodo says to himself, "But surely they will understand. Sam will." Frodo knows Sam nearly as well as Sam knows Frodo, and he knows that Sam understands him. Sam is a very smart character with a lot of common sense - he just tends not to show it so much in the company of all these 'high' and 'fine' folk.

Something that just occurred to me while reading what other people have had to say about the visions Frodo had on Amon Hen. Perhaps this is why Aragorn desired to go there so much, as he said in the previous chapter:

"Do you not know, Borormir, or do you choose to forget the North Stiar, and the high seat upon Amon Hen, that were made in the days of the great kings? I at least have a mind ot stand in that high place again, before I decide my further course. There, maybe, we shall see some sign that will guide us."

It would appear that these 'magical' qualities of the high seat of Amon Hen were known, at least in Rivendell and possibly Minas Tirith. Aragorn also mentions the seat was "made in the days of the great kings," so I would tend to think that either the Númenoreans or possibly some of the very early kings (i.e. Elendil, Isildur, Anarion) "imparted some special quality to the location" (as Esty so aptly put it).

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Esty

I wonder, is it the location that has ‘magical’ properties, enabling anyone who comes there to see? ... Does the Ring have something to do with Frodo’s expanded sight?

Yes. The mountains remind me of palantirs and mirrors; you can either relax and look, or you can search, bending it to your will. I think searching is much harder and more challenging.

I wonder, is it the location that has ‘magical’ properties, enabling anyone who comes there to see?

Yes, Esty, I think so; but you have to know that you should "look". A failure to look will result in seeing nothing. Good sight is especially helpful for those who know to look.

Does the Ring have something to do with Frodo’s expanded sight?

Again, yes. It's good to be on a high place if you want to 'see' far; but the one with the best eyesight will still see furthest. Just as Legolas would see the most of the fellowship, physically, so also those who are so gifted-- Aragorn and Frodo for instance-- will see well.

Why did Aragorn not see much that day, where Frodo saw much? It seems to me that Aragorn was in a mood to see what he wanted to know, but in too much of a hurry to wait patiently and strive for it; whereas Frodo came with few expectations, except curiosity and need.

I wonder whether losing Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw significantly eroded the wisdom of Gondor; it seems that one can be caught by Sauron either on the hill or in the palantir. I wonder if the hills could be used by more than one person in harmony.

Too bad Amon Lhaw and its "hearing" was never explored in the trology. I wonder what that was like. What might one hear?

Frodo might have had an advantage there, too; wasn't his hearing improved as well?

Tempting to try and hear the music of the Ainur.

(ps. Firefoot, good points on Frodo & Sam.)

[Boromir88]

Amon Hen holds a definate importance in this chapter. We all know it is the "Hill of Seeing," and Frodo's vision is upon this. I think there is definate some sort of "magical quality" in this hill, as Firefoot has already pointed out, it is atleast important to Aragorn. Frodo's vision stretches from the Misty Mountains to Barad-dur, that is over half of Middle-earth. Obviously one sitting upon Amon Hen can't "literally" see from the Misty Mountains to Barad-dur, instead it comes in a "vision," and that could be the true magical quality of Amon Hen.

Makes me sort of wonder about Amon Lhaw, the hill of hearing, hmmm. Not much was said on Amon Lhaw, but just makes you wonder, what things could happen upon the "hill of hearing."

Edit: Also, we get some Tolkien repetition. FOTR Book I ends at Amon Sul (Hill of the wind), ends with Frodo putting on the ring and getting wounded. FOTR Book II, ends (well last chapter of the book) with Amon Hen. Again Frodo is in trouble and again he puts on the Ring. Is this repetition to forbode later on Frodo will put on the Ring when he is in trouble...hint hint, Mount Doom. There's even more connections, both chapters end with the "flight of Frodo." Frodo's flight to the Ford, then Frodo's flight away from the company, into Mordor. And both times he is accompanied by ONE person, first it's an Elf, 2nd time it's by his soon to be best friend who just so happens to admire elves. There are a lot of parallels between the end of Book I and Book II, but I still wonder, what Tolkien is trying to do with these parallels. Is it to show repetition, and the tendancy of Frodo, to "flee" and use the ring when he get's into trouble?

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

Originally Posted by Aldarion

Some might argue that this is because Sam is so close to Frodo, but I don't think that's the case, yet.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

Which is exactly what I am going to argue.... He (Sam) is particularly protective of Frodo and has known him for a long time, so this characteristic of understanding people is very pronounced in his closeness to Frodo. Also, Frodo says to himself, "But surely they will understand. Sam will." Frodo knows Sam nearly as well as Sam knows Frodo, and he knows that Sam understands him. Sam is a very smart character with a lot of common sense - he just tends not to show it so much in the company of all these 'high' and 'fine' folk.

Sorry to steer the conversation in a different direction, I think I'm going to contend for my position a little more

I re-read this chapter again last night, and I think that the interaction between Frodo and Sam is still characterized between a master and a trusted servant. In many ways, Sam never really grows beyond this in the whole series, at least not in his speech and subservient attitude. I point to his brief time as ring-bearer in Cirith Ungol. He doesn't get far before he decides his place is by his Master's side. Sam certainly knows his master well - has learned over the last several weeks - and takes his responsibilities seriously.

Meanwhile, Frodo's treatment of Sam is still of a trusted servant - one that he is coming to love as a brother. While I don't think that Sam ever gets over the rolls that they played in the Shire, by this time Frodo is beginning to.

I wonder if this point of view is so contested here because in contemporary culture we find the idea of a master/servant relationship somewhat repulsive.

Bado go Eru, Aldarion

[Boromir88]

I get it now Davem, I think you're onto something in saying the external vs. internal "voices and eyes" of Frodo here. I think in every person rests a battle of "good and evil," or "good conscious and bad conscious." Boromir, atleast in this chapter, is a representation of Frodo's "evil desires," so in a way he does represent the personified evil's of Frodo. Also,

Originally posted by Davem:
Frodo may not have realised he has the kind of desires you're attributing to Boromir, but I can't help suspecting they are already there, deep down.

I think all we have to look at is as early on as in the Shire. Frodo can't bring himself throwing it into the fire. So, already, IN THE SHIRE, he can't bring himself to throwing it away, how is he going to do it when he gets to Mordor, sort of makes you wonder.