LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 08 - Farewell to Lórien

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Really just time for a quick post, but I hope to have more later today (RL willing).

SpM, that scene with Galadriel passing round the cup is taken straight from any number of Anglo-Saxon poems. In the A-S world, the woman of the hall would be the "cupbearer" who took the flagon to each man. It was an important, and specifically feminine role.

As to the gifts. Esty has already made the point about Galadriel's gifts as being directed toward the final fate of the heroes, but I would like to expand on that a bit and connect it to Celeborn.

Galadriel seems to be all about endings. Her gifts to Frodo, Sam, Aragorn and Gimli all are directed toward what will happen to them after the quest, in addition to being useful during it. Frodo is given the light of Westernesse, where he will eventually go to find healing. Sam is given the dust that he will need to heal the Shire, where he will live out (most) of the rest of his life. Aragorn is given the gem in token of Arwen and his marriage to her. And Gimli is given the hairs that will cement his new bond with Legolas/Elves and that will lead to his co-operation with them and his travels with Legolas. Merry and Pippin are somewhat left out of this, I realise, but I still think it significant that they are given the same sorts of gifts as is Boromir -- and again they seem to have something to do with their endings: Boromir ends his journey in battle to proect the Halfings, Merry and Pippin will go on, after the quest, to defend the Shire in battle, and to become the closest things that the Shire has to military leaders.

So Galadriel is all about endings in her gifts, but Celeborn is all about the present. The boats and counsel he gives them are meant for the here and now: for the road. So perhaps this is a way of looking at the Celeborn/Galadriel relationship (and sorry, but I do not have as convincing or hilarious a post as Saucy does in Crazy Scenes to make this point)? Celeborn, the powerful Elf lord of this world, is committed to the practicalities of this world, while Galadriel, the last of the Noldor and thus of the 'other world' is all about that -- she is about what comes after or at the end, he is all about the present. Both are necessary for the success of the Quest, but in the end, we are more 'enchanted' by Galadriel and the endings/fadings that she represents than we are by the present task. This is interesting, for Tolkien is able to drag us into a very Elvish state -- by valuing Galadriel and her gifts over Celeborn's we, in effect, think like Elves insofar as we value the gifts that are -- all of them -- relics from the past that are meant to be preserved into the future.

Boromir and Aragorn: wow, never really thought about them in this way, but it occurs to me that perhaps they are shadowy reflections of each other? Or, perhaps more properly, Boromir is a shadowy reflection of Aragorn? Boromir is a model or type of the hero that Aragorn can (and maybe even wishes to be) but with the passing of Gandalf he is willing to continue on in a more 'hobbit' like mode (creeping toward Mordor rather than riding to the defense of his city). It's interesting that with Boromir's death, Aragorn takes upon himself the tasks that Boromir was fulfilling (protecting Merry and Pippin, then Gondor). It's almost as though at the breaking of the Fellowship, Aragorn is given the choice between Boromir-hero and Frodo-hero and he makes the choice for Boromir?? The big difference between himself and Bor, though, is that he is self-aware to the extent that he is aware of the bind that he is in, and this explains why he is so happy to accept the boats and delay the decision. It's not the Fellowship that he is having trouble splitting up, but himself. He is torn between two heroic models/two heroic journeys and he knows that by taking one he will lose something of the other.

(Hmm. . .just occuring to me for later chapters: perhaps Faramir and Boromir are two halves of an 'Aragorn'?)

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

In the end I think if it came down to the Ring (which he was always able to suppress until that ONE confrontation) or Minas Tirith, it would be Minas Tirith, since his madness was only temporary.

Well, we will have to disagree on this. To my mind, the pull of the Ring is by now stronger for Boromir than the pull of Minas Tirith. The madness which provokes him to seek to take the Ring from Frodo by force may only have been temporary, but, to my mind, the desire which gives rise to it is not. I do like to think that once the madness has passed, Boromir does truly repent and is free of the Ring's lure, but this is perhaps left until we reach the relevant Chapter.

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

SpM, that scene with Galadriel passing round the cup is taken straight from any number of Anglo-Saxon poems. In the A-S world, the woman of the hall would be the "cupbearer" who took the flagon to each man. It was an important, and specifically feminine role.

Ah, I suspected that it would be something like that, and it ties in with the cup/water being symbols of femininity, intuition, empathy and dream-state. Galadriel also bears Nenya, the Ring of Water. And her gift to Frodo contained water from her fountain (as, indeed, did her Mirror).

Originally Posted by Fordim

Merry and Pippin are somewhat left out of this, I realise, but I still think it significant that they are given the same sorts of gifts as is Boromir -- and again they seem to have something to do with their endings: Boromir ends his journey in battle to proect the Halfings, Merry and Pippin will go on, after the quest, to defend the Shire in battle, and to become the closest things that the Shire has to military leaders.

Good point. There is definately a link being established between Boromir and the two young Hobbits, although it is done with great subtlety (unlike in the film where it was, I think, necessary to establish this link more obviously). I also noticed that Merry and Pippin travel in the same boat as Boromir.

Originally Posted by Fordim

Celeborn, the powerful Elf lord of this world, is committed to the practicalities of this world, while Galadriel, the last of the Noldor and thus of the 'other world' is all about that -- she is about what comes after or at the end, he is all about the present. Both are necessary for the success of the Quest, but in the end, we are more 'enchanted' by Galadriel and the endings/fadings that she represents than we are by the present task. This is interesting, for Tolkien is able to drag us into a very Elvish state -- by valuing Galadriel and her gifts over Celeborn's we, in effect, think like Elves insofar as we value the gifts that are -- all of them -- relics from the past that are meant to be preserved into the future.

I think that this is a very astute observation, Fordim. And I think that there is a similar comparison to be made between Celeborn's link to the practical and physical world and Galadriel's association with more spiritual and emotional matters. As you say, Celeborn provides practical gifts for the physical journey, whereas Galadriel is more concerned with the Fellowship's spiritual state (for example when she tests their faith in the Quest) and her gifts are more concerned with their emotional needs (love, friendship, comfort and relief from fear etc). This links in with the cup/water symbolism, which emphasises her role as an empathetic/intuitive power. As I touched on in my previous posts, it is significant that the scabbard is said to be from her and Celeborn jointly, whereas the other gift to Aragorn is personal to her, as are the gifts to Frodo, Sam and Gimli.

I think that this line of thought comes closest to resolving my reservations over Celeborn's role. He is a powerful figure, but his power lies in his practical role as Lord of the realm. This power is not as relevant to the Quest (although it is important in this Chapter), and so it is downplayed in comparison with Galadriel's intuitive power, which impacts directly on the Quest. Thus Celeborn's power (in the previous Chapter at least) seems inferior to hers.

[Boromir88]

You're right SpM, we'll do have contrasting ideas (and that's good some times ), maybe something will pop up in these closing chapters of the Fellowship .

Now onto the second half of my argument, I intended on writing but I ran out of time. To sum up my previous posts. I come up with this thinking that Boromir joined the Fellowship for the wrong reasons. He joined for the SOLE purpose that the Fellowship's road, and his road to Minas Tirith followed the same path for a long ways. I see that as a wrong reason of joining, only joining to head back home, where Boromir seems to be the only member of the Fellowship that is able to willingly "depart" from the Fellowship. (I will say, this is only my opinion, I'm open to any debate, just getting out my views). So now on why I believe, Aragorn joined for the RIGHT reasons.

We know that Aragorn intended on going to Minas Tirith (as long as Gandalf was in the company). He truly thought it was his time to go (obviously it wasn't). But, I don't see that as the SOLE reason for joining the fellowship, like it seems to be in Boromir. Boromir from the start, see's it folly to put the ring in the hand of a hobbit, and blindly walk into Mordor. From the start, he says, I'm going back to my home (none of the other company member's do this). Boromir is against any important decision the company tries to make (Moria, Lothlorien, then later on deciding what "side" of the river to land on, where to go from there...etc). Aragorn however, there are other clues (or atleast I take as clues) that he joined to truly "follow Frodo." After Gandalf dies, he is in deep thought, thinking he can't go to Minas Tirith now, if Frodo decides not to. Here we see his compassion for Frodo, he can't now bring himself to leaving the company (like Gandalf, and I suspect this deep thinking had something to do with Galadriel as well). Anyway, even before this we can see Aragorn (unlike Boromir) thinks this is the only possible way of destroying the ring for ever. He thinks (no matter how desperate it is) it's their ownly shot. (Again opposite of Boromir). We also get to see an earlier compassion for Frodo, first off with Frodo's wound, then again in Moria, once they leave Moria, to stop and have Frodo take a break from the "wound" he supposedly suffered. And again in Amon Hen, he leaves it up to Frodo, to choose what path to go. No matter what path Frodo chooses, Boromir is heading for Minas Tirith. If Aragorn's only reason for joining the Fellowship was to be like Boromir, then he too would head to Minas Tirith. Instead we see contrasting ideas with Boromir and Aragorn, we see Aragorn shows a lot more compassion towards Frodo, then Boromir, and we see Aragorn willing to follow Frodo to the end (something Boromir wouldn't do, obviously). So, I think even if Aragorn comes out and says, we're joining to head to Minas Tirith, there were other reasons for Aragorn joining, by just showing compassion towards Frodo. If he was deadset let's go to Minas Tirith like Boromir, then he would be able to leave Frodo, and he just can't do that anymore. This is just circumstantial evidence, by just contrasting Aragorn and Boromir, so please if anyone has another view on things I would love to hear it (well see it).

Edit: One last thing on Aragorn. He comes out and says, he's going to Minas Tirith, because of all the dreams, and signs he thought it was time to go. He never comes out and says anything about wanting to go, he just thinks it's time that the kingship returns to Gondor. We see in Bree, that he wants to restore a King (but only when it's the right time). I don't know if I should discuss this here, but I think the simple fact that Aragorn doesn't take the crown right away, shows good political skills by Aragorn, but also, that he doesn't want to go to Gondor just to reclaim the throne right away, he wants to reclaim it when he feels its the right time of doing it. He thought it was the right time back during the Fellowship (and it wasn't). Which also makes me tend to think what I've been babbling on now in two extremely long posts.

Fordhim, nice observation on the fact that Boromir+Faramir=Aragorn. We know that Boromir and Faramir are more opposite then similar. Boromir is well known/respected for his fighting, Faramir is more respected for other reasons then fighting, we'll just say he isn't best known for his fighting skill. So, if indeed if Boromir is a shadowy reflection of Aragorn, then I think a Boromir and Faramir, put together, are both halves of Aragorn. .

[the phantom]

He joined for the SOLE purpose that the Fellowship's road, and his road to Minas Tirith followed the same path for a long ways. I see that as a wrong reason of joining, only joining to head back home

What's wrong with that? You realize he coud have left for home before the Fellowship set out. Elrond could've found a horse for him and Boromir could've ridden home the same way he came.

But he didn't. He travelled with the Fellowship and made himself useful. The Fellowship probably would not have survived Caradhras had Boromir not been there.

Elrond specifically said-

The others go with him as free companions, to help him on his way. You may tarry, or come back, or turn aside into other paths, as chance allows. The further you go, the less easy will it be to withdraw; yet no oath or bond is laid on you to go further than you will.

Boromir didn't have to do anything, yet he travelled with the Fellowship and helped, and in the end died trying to protect two of his fellow members.

Boromir deserves honor for his service.

and we see Aragorn willing to follow Frodo to the end

But it was not in his plans until Gandalf died, and Gandalf's burden was laid upon him (but not laid upon Boromir).

And SPMan said this-

I do wonder whether Boromir would really have left Frodo in the event that the Company had been faced at this point with the decision of going east or west.

I also wonder this.

Not to mention, how do we know that part of Aragorn's willingness to follow Frodo and the Ring (despite the summons to return to his kingdom) wasn't due to the lure of the Ring?

[Boromir88]

What's wrong with that? You realize he coud have left for home before the Fellowship set out. Elrond could've found a horse for him and Boromir could've ridden home the same way he came.

But he didn't. He travelled with the Fellowship and made himself useful. The Fellowship probably would not have survived Caradhras had Boromir not been there

I'm simply saying it's questionable that Boromir didn't join the Fellowship, we'll say for the "moral" reasons. I know of Boromir's importance to the Fellowship (obviously there's a reason he's my favorite character), I'm simply getting out an idea to question WHY he joined the Fellowship. It's clear he decided to go along with the Fellowship, so he could go back to Minas Tirith, and he left with the Fellowship because Aragorn was going back to Minas Tirith as well.

Aragorn's situation is different from Boromir's. He's going because he thinks it's his time, but he holds Frodo's quest above his own. It was Aragorn's choice to take on the "leadership" role, and we do get to see Aragorn struggle at this, which is why I'm glad Aragorn didn't go back to Minas Tirith at this time, I don't think it's until we meet Eomer when Aragorn's true leadership qualities begin to show. Point is, it was his own choice to lead the Fellowhship, it was his own choice to be the "bearer" of Gandalf's burden. I think the fact that Aragorn sets aside his own "fate," for the sake of Frodo is an oustanding statement of his character.

Elrond indeed did say that people may leave the company as they wish, but just because they can, doesn't make it "morally" right. I'll make one clear statement to show my position. The Fellowship would not have survived if it wasn't for Boromir, I'm trying to say maybe he died because he didn't join the Fellowship for the right reasons. I think a clear example of Boromir and the rest of the Fellowship is, he's always at friction with them. He thinks it's foolish to send the ring blindly into Mordor, in the hands of a hobbit, which is why he holds his own personal quest of going back to Minas Tirith, above Frodo's quest. Indeed Frodo's quest is foolish, and very little hope of it ever suceeding, but there still is hope. Aragorn, I think, he joins the Fellowship for the "moral" reason, is because he takes on Gandalf's burden, he shows compassion towards Frodo, he holds Frodo above his own quest, these are testaments to show that Aragorn will do whatever he can do to help to have this quest suceed, even if he sees it as little hope and foolish. Boromir, see's it as foolish, and wants nothing to do with it, as stated in previous chapters Boromir's moments come in when strength and fighting is needed, those are his strengths.

All the other members can't bring themself to leaving. Legolas, Gimli, desire to stay in Lorien, but they move on, because they can't abandon Frodo now. Sam is about to turn aside, but Galadriel directs him in the right way, Merry and Pippin, there's not much on them in FOTR, but there's no evidence of them turning aside. Aragorn, we can tell he doesn't want to turn aside, for all the reasons I've stated above. The only one that can turn aside is Boromir, and eventhough Elrond makes it "legal" to "turn aside," say they are "free companions," doesn't mean it's the "moral" thing to do. One may legally get drunk, but doesn't make it the moral thing to do. I think I've repeated myself enough, and you are probably all tired of my crazy, whacked ramblings, so I'll stop.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

‘Then I need say no more,’ said Celeborn. ‘But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years; for oft it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know.’

Yet as is the way of Elvish words, they remained graven in [Frodo’s] memory, and long afterwards he interpreted them, as well as he could: the language was that of Elven-song and spoke of things little known on Middle-earth.

These two moments come as the Fellowship is leaving Lorien. The first are the last words spoken by Celeborn in the chapter, and the second is Frodo’s reaction to Galadriel’s parting song – so they really are the ‘final words’ of Lorien in a way. What is interesting is how they are about the same sorts of ideas, but with different emphases. Both are about memory and permanence, specifically, the necessary permanence ‘feminine’ memory.

In Celeborn’s parting words to Boromir we seem to be getting some foreshadowing to Ioreth and the “old wives’ tales” that will be one of the first things to proclaim Aragorn as the King; that Celeborn is saying this to Boromir is no accident, I think, as he is a Gondorian Man who still needs some convincing that Aragorn is the rightful leader. Boromir anticipates those Men of Minas Tirith who are perhaps too caught up in the manly pursuit of war to pay heed to the ‘woman’s wisdom’ that will announce that the King has come.

The effect Galadriel’s song on Frodo is marvellous insofar as it seems to spring from a kind of art that achieves near absolute creativity. The language of her song is almost like the divine creative language insofar as it seems to create a new reality for Frodo, or, at least, to become a palpable part of his reality. Just as Eru sang the world into being (and just as God spoke the world into being – “let there be light”) so too does Galadriel’s song create and become memory. The experience of the song does not survive in his memory, but the song itself is like a memory that Galadriel puts there. So as with Celeborn’s words of warning to Boromir, femininity, memory and the necessity of paying attention to these are being emphasised. It’s almost as though Frodo is doing what Boromir cannot: Frodo is open to being ‘imprinted’ by the actual experience of the past embodied by the experience of Galadriel’s lament; Boromir is in danger of being closed to the same.

We’ve done quite a bit in response to gender in these chapters and I think that here these issues are given some kind of resolution: Frodo remembers, absolutely, the feminine power of Lorien; Boromir is dangerously incapable or unwilling to heed the feminine, so devoted is he to the masculine. davem made the excellent point above about Aragorn’s sword and scabbard as combining male/phallic and female/yonic symbolism – is it going too far to suggest some kind of pattern here?

Boromir/male: does not heed women’s tales; doesn’t think that anything they preserve is at all important.

Frodo/female: heeds Galadriel’s song so closely that it literally enters his mind and becomes part of who he is.

These two characters end up ‘unhappily’ although, obviously, in very different ways (although, perhaps, not all that different, insofar as – in the end – they are both wounded by the Ring which they have tried to claim for their own; and in each case, it is their very attempt to take the Ring that makes its destruction possible…) Only Aragorn is able to bring these two ‘sides’ into balance: he bears with him the memory of Lorien (as does Frodo) and he is heading toward reclaiming the inheritance held for him ‘in trust’ by the “old wives’ tales” of women like Ioreth.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm simply saying it's questionable that Boromir didn't join the Fellowship, we'll say for the "moral" reasons.

But why should it be "morally" wrong for Boromir to wish to return to help defend his country and his people? Surely, as the first born son of the Ruling Steward, it was in fact his moral duty to do so. Had he chosen to do so, then I don't think that anyone would have thought the worse of him. After all, we do not think badly of Faramir for choosing not to accompany Frodo and Sam on their journey into Mordor, but rather remaining to discharge his duty to his people as best he could.

In any event, my view is that Boromir had by now become so attached to Frodo, or more specifically that which Frodo was carrying, that he would not have left him even had the opportunity arisen. And assuming that to be the case, staying with the Fellowship was in fact morally the wrong course for him to take.

[the phantom]

He thinks it's foolish to send the ring blindly into Mordor, in the hands of a hobbit

Yes, but he helps anyway. That's more of a plus than a minus.

And the next thing I was going to say... SPM beat me to it.

But why should it be "morally" wrong for Boromir to wish to return to help defend his country and his people? Surely, as the first born son of the Ruling Steward, it was in fact his moral duty to do so....After all, we do not think badly of Faramir for choosing not to accompany Frodo and Sam on their journey into Mordor, but rather remaining to discharge his duty to his people as best he could.

If Boromir joined the Fellowship to try to sabotage it, or to steal the Ring, or because he didn't like Sam and wanted to stick around and tease him about his hairy feet, then he joined for the wrong reason.

But going home to lead your kingdom's battle against evil? I don't see how the word "wrong" can possibly be associated with that.

In any event, my view is that Boromir had by now become so attached to Frodo, or more specifically that which Frodo was carrying, that he would not have left him even had the opportunity arisen. And assuming that to be the case, staying with the Fellowship was in fact morally the wrong course for him to take.

Good observation, SP.