LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 08 - Farewell to Lórien

[Sapphire_Flame]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

...Boromir[...]'s set, he's going to Minas Tirith, whether no one follows him or not. That was Aragorn's original plan, then we see he too, can't just abandon Frodo. Boromir just was "in" because their paths followed the same road, he wasn't in because he cared for Frodo. Even though Elrond did say people may leave when they wish. I think Boromir's death, and all the times he goes up against the Fellowship, reinforces the fact that Boromir isn't there to "travel with Frodo to the end," he's there to go home, from the START.

That definitely seems to be the case. He was valuable to the Fellowship, whatever his reason for joining them. It is very possible that, were it not for him, Frodo would have been longer in coming to his decision to leave, and the attack by Saruman's uruks would have been all more the damaging to the rest of the Fellowship. Maybe Merry and Pippin wouldn't have been kidnapped (if they didn't leave the presence of Aragorn et al, that could have been the case), therefore not making it to Fangorn to alert the ents of Saruman's treachery. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli would not have had to go to Fangorn to find Merry and Pippin, so they wouldn't have found Gandalf. Or maybe Merry and Pippin would have been killed by the Uruk-hai, thus not only posing the above problems again, but causing the deaths of Eowyn and Faramir later on.

So, whatever caused his joining the Fellowship, it was well done. Huzzah for Boromir!

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Gimli had two choices, darkness (which may be going home or abandoning the company who knows), or hope (Aragorn). Gimli can follow hope (which he does through the rest of the story), and if hope does not fail, "his hands will flow with gold, yet over him gold shall have no dominion." Indeed that's a big deal, concerning the dwarves, greed, their greed for more and more riches. Which is why I believe here, Gimli would have been last of the Fellowship to fall to the ring, due to Galadriel's statement, and indeed, in Gimli hope does not fail. As he chooses to stick with "hope" (Aragorn), and not go with darkness (which I feel darkness would be abandoning the company).

And to think, there are all those silly people who think Gimli would have been the next to fall for the Ring. Lord, what fools these mortals be.

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Boromir88]

That definitely seems to be the case. He was valuable to the Fellowship, whatever his reason for joining them. It is very possible that, were it not for him, Frodo would have been longer in coming to his decision to leave, and the attack by Saruman's uruks would have been all more the damaging to the rest of the Fellowship. Maybe Merry and Pippin wouldn't have been kidnapped (if they didn't leave the presence of Aragorn et al, that could have been the case), therefore not making it to Fangorn to alert the ents of Saruman's treachery. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli would not have had to go to Fangorn to find Merry and Pippin, so they wouldn't have found Gandalf. Or maybe Merry and Pippin would have been killed by the Uruk-hai, thus not only posing the above problems again, but causing the deaths of Eowyn and Faramir later on.

Saphire, very true. There is another scenario I have cooked up with in my own little head. If Boromir hadn't of went crazy on Frodo, Frodo wouldn't have learned what the Ring was doing to the Fellowship. Boromir was only the first to fall, and he taught Frodo a lesson, taught Frodo he had to get out of there, before it was the end of the quest!

[Lhunardawen]

Hobbits seem to have unleashed their fascination for magic in the Lothlorien trilogy!

Sam said in the previous chapter:

I'd dearly love to see some Elf-magic, Mr. Frodo!

In this chapter Pippin says:

Are these magic cloaks?

I just found it amusing.

Arguably, the most interesting gift given by Galadriel to the Company was Gimli's. If we try to remember the events two ages ago, we'll see that this has happened before; that someone asked Galadriel for some of her hair. The first to make such a request was Feanor, and from Galadriel's hair it was said he found the inspiration for making the Silmarils. But despite her close kinship with Feanor, Galadriel refused his request. But two ages had passed, and here a Dwarf makes the same request, and she willingly obliged!

[the phantom]

is Boromir in the Fellowship for the wrong reasons?

No.
(not unless you think Aragorn also went along for the wrong reason)

All the other members joined to help Frodo out

Not Aragorn. He was also headed for Minas Tirith. But you obviously know that because you said-

I left Aragorn out for this reason. He too originally joined the Company to head for Minas Tirith

Huh? Why is that a reason to leave Aragorn out when it is precisely what you are criticizing Boromir for? He had the same plan as Boromir and somehow his plan is fine but Boromir's is not?

But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not now forsake the Ring, if Frodo refused in the end to go with Boromir.

This does not change anything. Aragorn's original plan was to go to Minas Tirith. The burden of Gandalf had been laid on him, not Boromir, so why should Boromir's plans change? Just think- if Gandalf had come through Moria then Aragorn would have been willing to abandon Frodo and go to Minas Tirith (just like Boromir). Would that have made Aragorn's reasons for being in the Fellowship wrong?

No.

If the eastern side was chosen Boromir would presumably have left the fellowship, to the benefit of Gondor (at least during the War of the Ring), and with obvious major changes in the story plot. If the western side of the Anduin one would presume the existent plot would basically have remained intact. I am not at all convinced that it was a wise decision to take to the boats.

Yes, Boro probably would've split had they chosen the eastern bank- but who else might've split?

Remember, when they reached Rauros Aragorn was leaning heavily towards dividing the Fellowship. He suggested that Frodo, Sam, and Gimli would continue on towards Mordor and the rest would go with Boromir (Aragorn planned on staying with Frodo).

So if they had to make that decision earlier who is to say that Legolas, Merry, and Pippin would not have gone with Boromir? That definitely would've changed things.

But if they would've chosen the western bank... how do they get to Mordor???

There isn't a place to cross the Anduin until Gondor so the Fellowship would stay together and likely end up in Minas Tirith. That could change the story in many ways.

I think the boats were a super super gift. It moved the point of no return back a little.

[The Saucepan Man]

Some thoughts on previous posts and some thoughts of my own ...

Originally Posted by davem

So it seems Tolkien was toying with the idea that it was not some ‘innate’ power or aspect of the Otherworld that caused the slowing or ceasing of time but the will of Galadriel herself - Time moves differently (if it moves at all) because she commands it to. This opens up many new areas of speculation - why, for instance, did Tolkien reject the idea - would it have proved too complex or confsing for readers, or would it have made Galadriel too powerful, too dictatorial - too ‘unnatural’?

Interesting that Tolkien was originally toying with the idea of time not passing at all while the Fellowship remained in Lothlorien. Clearly, he retained the idea of "timelessness" which, as you say, emphasises the dreamlike atmosphere of the place. He does make the point that the Fellowship themselves were unclear as to how long they had remained in the realm:

Their hearts were heavy; for it was a fair place, and it had become like home to them, though they could not count the days and nights they had passed there.

I suspect that Tolkien ultimately concluded that references such as this, combined with Frodo's reaction to the place and the very "feel" of it portrayed by the descriptive passages, were sufficient to convey its "timelessness" and dreamlike quality. He did not have to go that step further and have no time pass there at all. And, if no time passed outside for those that passed time within the realm, that would have given rise to a "logical" conundrum (although that is, perhaps, an inappropriate word to use when talking of a magical land). At what point in time in the "outside" world would Elves who dwelt in the land emerge from it? The time at which they first entered? What if they were born there? Or could they leave at a point in time of their choosing? Surely that would effectively give them the gift of time travel. Perhaps Tolkien never developed the idea sufficiently to consider these issues, but they surely would have arisen had he stuck with it.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Exactly, and Boromir is the only one who can bring himself to leaving the company. He's set, he's going to Minas Tirith, whether no one follows him or not. That was Aragorn's original plan, then we see he too, can't just abandon Frodo. Boromir just was "in" because their paths followed the same road, he wasn't in because he cared for Frodo.

I do wonder whether Boromir would really have left Frodo in the event that the Company had been faced at this point with the decision of going east or west. Clearly, this is his stated position:

"I shall go to Minas Tirith, alone if need be, for that is my duty," said Boromir;

But then he lapses into silence …

... sitting with his eyes fixed on Frodo, as if he was trying to read the Halfling's thoughts.

Clearly, there is more going on within Boromir's mind than he lets (or wants to let) on. When he speaks again, he does so softly, as if he is debating with himself. And that is precisely what he is doing. He knows that his duty is to return to Minas Tirith, but he is getting to the stage where he cannot bring himself to do so without the Ringbearer - or the Ring. And he almost gives himself away with his unguarded words which follow. Certainly, he arouses Frodo's suspicions:

Frodo caught something new and strange in Boromir's glance, and he looked hard at him. Plainly, Boromir's thought was different from his final words. It would be folly to throw away: what? The Ring of Power?

It is interesting that Aragorn appears to be oblivious to this exchange but rather seems to be "deep in his own thought", given that he has previously made pointed remarks to Boromir on two occasions concerning the peril of Lothlorien to those who bring evil with them into the realm.

In any event, it seems to me from this passage that, whatever Boromir may have said openly, it was unlikely now that he would follow a different course to the Ringbearer - unless he bore the Ring himself.

Another point occurs to me. We see in this passage that Frodo sees something "new and strange" in Boromir. Is this because it is only now that the desire for the Ring has fully awoken within Boromir? Certainly, at the Council of Elrond, he was all for bringing it to Minas Tirith and using it against Sauron, but it is unlikely that he had any intention at that stage to forcibly impose his will in this regard. Is Lothlorien a "turning point" for Boromir? And, if so, is this connected with Galadriel's test, which forced him to confront his heart’s desire? Was this the "peril" which lay in Lothlorien for Boromir - to have his desire awoken? If so, it might suggest that, had he not entered the realm, his desire would have remained latent, or at least not come to the fore so quickly. Indeed, if we suppose that he would have succumbed to the lure of the Ring eventually, perhaps this was Galadriel's purpose in confronting him with his desire. Since she could see what was in his heart, perhaps she considered it better to "flush it out" early, rather than risk having it surface at a later stage, in Minas Tirith perhaps, when Boromir would have been surrounded by men loyal to him.

And now onto Celeborn. After my character assassination ( ) in the discussion of the previous Chapter, I have to admit that he is portrayed in a much better light here. He provides the Fellowship with boats (a very important gift, as others have noted) and provides useful counsel concerning the Fellowship's route. I also noticed that, when he tells the Fellowship that all shall be prepared for them at the haven, he says that this is to be accomplished by "my people", not "our people". Is this simply a reference to the fact that the Elves of Lorien are closer in kindred to him than to Galadriel, or does it suggest that, for all her power and wisdom, he remains Lord of the realm?

It is, however, Galadriel, who bestows the individual gifts on the Fellowship, despite her having previously described her husband as "a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings".

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I think we can assume that the gifts are from both of them, so that it doesn’t matter much – or does it?

Well, I think that it does. The boats which Celeborn gives the Fellowship are important, but they are hardly beyond the power of kings. Whereas the gifts which Galadriel gives are, since (specifically with reference to the gifts which she gives to Aragorn, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli) they are personal to her. The Elfstone she passed to her daughter, who in turn passed it to her daughter, Arwen. The phial contains the waters of her fountain. Sam's box contains earth from her garden. And Gimli, of course, is given three locks of her hair. It is important, I think that each of these gifts is identified closely with her for she sustains and embodies the fading magic and beauty of Lothlorien, which will sustain Frodo in his hour of need and live on in the love of Aragorn and Arwen, in the enhanced beauty of the Shire and in Gimli's heart, long after it has passed from the world. With these gifts, which are personal to Galadriel, these members of the Fellowship carry Lothlorien with them beyond its borders, and beyond its very existence.

As for Legolas, Merry, Pippin and Boromir, well Legolas probably felt like a kid with a new toy, but I wonder if the others felt more like the father who finds a tie or a pair of socks in a beautifully wrapped present. I mean, the belts are nice and all, but ...

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Galadriel gives the gifts – after drinking the ritual cup of parting with them.

I don't have much myself to say about this, but I strongly suspect that there is some symbolic significance in drinking from a cup of parting . I know that cups traditionally (in the tarot, for example) symbolise hearts, water, emotion and intuition, but after that I draw a blank. Are others able to add anything further here? (davem? Bb? Fordim?) Also, I wonder if there is any significance in the fact that Eowyn also offers a cup of parting - to Aragorn before he disappears off down the Paths of the Dead ...

Finally, I cannot let this Chapter pass without quoting my wife's favourite line (and therefore one of mine, as it reminds me of her):

May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out.

[Boromir88]

The Phantom:

Even with Aragorn's intent on going to Minas Tirith, you can still speculate, whether Aragorn joined in for the right reasons. This is only my view, but here's how I will support it. From what is said, it appears Aragorn's "wanting" to travel to Minas Tirith, was because of the dreams and visions that he thought it was his time to go. Obviously something changed that in him, because now he's unsure, we can say, it was Gandalf's death, or maybe it was something that Galadriel did. SpM, has pointed out that indeed Boromir and Aragorn are in deep thought, and the "peril" of Lorien I believe is showing. Galadriel obviously brings out ways of testing each fellowships heart. We see actual accounts from a few of them. Frodo and Sam with the Mirror of Galadriel, Gimli's test was accounted (see my posts above), one's that we don't fully get, but know she tested Boromir, Aragorn, Legolas, Merry, Pippin.

Now, Legolas, Merry, and Pippin, there's no proof that they will willingly abandon the company, through no part in the story. (Eventhrough Merry and Pippin's thinking they are worthless, they have already done a lot of good, and even more good to come!)

So now, the ones in question are Aragorn and Boromir, who we know originally intended on heading to Minas Tirith. Boromir is deadset, going to Minas Tirith. Now, SpM points out the fact that Galadriel "awoke" the "beast" sleeping within Boromir (and I think it's a reasonable statement to say). Before these chapters, we know Boromir (at the Council) wanted to take the Ring to Minas Tirith, but other then that we don't see him truly being affected by the ring. UNTIL NOW! When it appears Galadriel has awoken the "peril" of Lorien. This is where my view differs from SpM. Clearly Boromir is being affected by the Ring. He has always been able to "suppress" that however. Even at Amon Hen, when the confrontation occurs, he is only taken over by a temporary madness. After that he does the "I'm sorry...blah blah blah." What, I'm saying is, if Boromir survived the onslaught of Amon Hen, I think his love for Minas Tirith, would be greater then his love for the Ring. For he was always able to suppress those feelings until Lothlorien, and even after he's able to suppress them, it's when the confrontation happens when he can't suppress it. And that was only temporary, his love for Minas Tirith, is something that isn't temporary. If Boromir lived he may leave for Minas Tirith, and still have thoughts about the ring, and if he's confronted again with the same choice, he may very well fall to it again. In the end I think if it came down to the Ring (which he was always able to suppress until that ONE confrontation) or Minas Tirith, it would be Minas Tirith, since his madness was only temporary.

Unfortunately, I've babbled too long and I got work, so this will have to be continued, where I will finish my argument with Aragorn and Boromir, joining for the right reasons?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Really just time for a quick post, but I hope to have more later today (RL willing).

SpM, that scene with Galadriel passing round the cup is taken straight from any number of Anglo-Saxon poems. In the A-S world, the woman of the hall would be the "cupbearer" who took the flagon to each man. It was an important, and specifically feminine role.

As to the gifts. Esty has already made the point about Galadriel's gifts as being directed toward the final fate of the heroes, but I would like to expand on that a bit and connect it to Celeborn.

Galadriel seems to be all about endings. Her gifts to Frodo, Sam, Aragorn and Gimli all are directed toward what will happen to them after the quest, in addition to being useful during it. Frodo is given the light of Westernesse, where he will eventually go to find healing. Sam is given the dust that he will need to heal the Shire, where he will live out (most) of the rest of his life. Aragorn is given the gem in token of Arwen and his marriage to her. And Gimli is given the hairs that will cement his new bond with Legolas/Elves and that will lead to his co-operation with them and his travels with Legolas. Merry and Pippin are somewhat left out of this, I realise, but I still think it significant that they are given the same sorts of gifts as is Boromir -- and again they seem to have something to do with their endings: Boromir ends his journey in battle to proect the Halfings, Merry and Pippin will go on, after the quest, to defend the Shire in battle, and to become the closest things that the Shire has to military leaders.

So Galadriel is all about endings in her gifts, but Celeborn is all about the present. The boats and counsel he gives them are meant for the here and now: for the road. So perhaps this is a way of looking at the Celeborn/Galadriel relationship (and sorry, but I do not have as convincing or hilarious a post as Saucy does in Crazy Scenes to make this point)? Celeborn, the powerful Elf lord of this world, is committed to the practicalities of this world, while Galadriel, the last of the Noldor and thus of the 'other world' is all about that -- she is about what comes after or at the end, he is all about the present. Both are necessary for the success of the Quest, but in the end, we are more 'enchanted' by Galadriel and the endings/fadings that she represents than we are by the present task. This is interesting, for Tolkien is able to drag us into a very Elvish state -- by valuing Galadriel and her gifts over Celeborn's we, in effect, think like Elves insofar as we value the gifts that are -- all of them -- relics from the past that are meant to be preserved into the future.

Boromir and Aragorn: wow, never really thought about them in this way, but it occurs to me that perhaps they are shadowy reflections of each other? Or, perhaps more properly, Boromir is a shadowy reflection of Aragorn? Boromir is a model or type of the hero that Aragorn can (and maybe even wishes to be) but with the passing of Gandalf he is willing to continue on in a more 'hobbit' like mode (creeping toward Mordor rather than riding to the defense of his city). It's interesting that with Boromir's death, Aragorn takes upon himself the tasks that Boromir was fulfilling (protecting Merry and Pippin, then Gondor). It's almost as though at the breaking of the Fellowship, Aragorn is given the choice between Boromir-hero and Frodo-hero and he makes the choice for Boromir?? The big difference between himself and Bor, though, is that he is self-aware to the extent that he is aware of the bind that he is in, and this explains why he is so happy to accept the boats and delay the decision. It's not the Fellowship that he is having trouble splitting up, but himself. He is torn between two heroic models/two heroic journeys and he knows that by taking one he will lose something of the other.

(Hmm. . .just occuring to me for later chapters: perhaps Faramir and Boromir are two halves of an 'Aragorn'?)