The Quenta Silmarillion Eucatastrophe-less

[Imladris]

No offense, but the fact that Earendil made it through to the west only after he regained a silmaril is not much of a eucatastrophe. I suppose that I am mainly upset with the unforgiveness of the Valar...you know what I mean?

What I'm saying is that that one small victory is not enough to make it a Eucatastrophe.

[mark12_30]

When Turgon led his hosts out of Gondolin, I stood up and cheered.

Of course, it was short-lived, and they got trounced shortly thereafter. But it was a glorious moment.

[Imladris]

Yes it was...but could it be considered a eucatastrophe?

There are so many cheering moments...but it's all for nothing. No eucatastrophe...

[Kuruharan]

I still think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective.

The War of Wrath was not a small victory. It was a far larger victory than the overthrow of Sauron.

I suppose that I am mainly upset with the unforgiveness of the Valar...you know what I mean?

Actually, I'm not sure I do.

It is a funny thing about the Curse of the Noldor, but it was a necessary thing to teach the Noldor the value of what they had before. They refused to obey the Valar, but the Valar had to let them go. It was the Noldor themselves who did not want to stay. Afterwards, they had to be prepared to return in their new forms to Valinor and not cause another riot.

And the Valar forgave them in the end.

Besides, eucatastrophe can be found in small things as well as great. Take Finrod. (Everyone loves Finrod.) He had a specifically mentioned happy ending that nobody could take away from him (unless, of course, one thinks that being in Valinor for all time is boring, but that is a topic for another time.)

[Aiwendil]

Imladris wrote:

The story of the Silmarils is done...so, as a myth, it is also deserving of a eucatastrophe. Yet, in my opinion, it does not have one.

And Firefoot:

I agree very much - there is really no joy in the Quenta Silmarillion.

I must disagree strongly. I would say that there is joy in the Silmarillion and indeed that there is eucatastrophe. And I would not call the Quenta Silmarillion as a whole a tragedy, though it does have tragedy within it.

Is there no joy in Valinor before the making of the Sun? Is there no joy in Doriath during the same time? Is there no joy in the story of Beren and Luthien?

As for a eucatastrophe - the success of Earendil is in my view the quintessential eucatastrophe. Imladris writes:

No offense, but the fact that Earendil made it through to the west only after he regained a silmaril is not much of a eucatastrophe. I suppose that I am mainly upset with the unforgiveness of the Valar...you know what I mean?

What I'm saying is that that one small victory is not enough to make it a Eucatastrophe.

But it is not "one small victory". The ultimate evil being is defeated. All the lands and people that were under his rule are freed. The slaves come forth from Angband. And it is all unforeseen and unexpected. The Valar are not unforgiving - that's the point. It is precisely the mercy of the Valar that defeats Morgoth.

Yes, people die. That shouldn't be too surprising, considering that the subject of much of the tale is a six hundred year long war. And the ending is certainly not unmitigated cheerfulness. But neither is the end of LotR. Personally, I think that the moment when Earendil appears in the sky and battles Ancalagon is the most piercingly eucatastrophic moment in Tolkien's writing.

Edit: Cross-posting with Kuruharan, who makes the same points that I do more concisely.

[Imladris]

The Valar are not unforgiving - that's the point. It is precisely the mercy of the Valar that defeats Morgoth.

Actually, I'm not sure I do.

Because Feanor was a spoiled brat, the entire family was doomed. I don't know...but that sounds a wee bit unforgiving to me.

And it is said that in that time Ulmo came to Valinor out of the deep waters, and spoke there to the Valar of the need of the Elves; and he called on them to forgive them, and rescue them from the overmastering might of Morgoth...But Manwe moved not; and of the counsels of his heart what tale shall tell? The wise have said that hour was not yet come, and that only one speaking in person for the cause of both Elves and Men, pleading for pardon on their misdeeds and pity on their woes, might move the counsels of the Powers

.

Even through all the bloodshed, the sorrow of Maedhros and his brother Maglor, the death of all the brave and noble men of Middle Earth because of the stupidity of Feanor, Manwe couldn't be bothered to forgive them. "The hour not yet come" -- why? No free will...horrid. On top of all that, they put a stipulation that one must come pleading for both elves and men -- and even then it was only a might.

Two purposes grew in his [Earendil's] heart, blended as one in longing for the wide Sea: he sought to sail thereon, seeking after Tuor and Idril who returned not; and he thought to find perhaps the last shore, and bring here he died the message of Elves and Men to the Valar in the West, that should move their hearts to pity for the sorrows of Middle Earth.

After everything they're not full of pity...

Erendil found not Tuor no Idril, nor came he ever on that journey to the shores of Valinor, defeated by shadows and enchantment, driven by repelling winds

Emphasis mine of course. Earendil who wanted to plead his case wasn't even allowed to come near the Valinor -- it's almost as if the Valar didn't even want to be moved to pity unles that one had a Silmaril.

and the wise have said that it was by reason of the power of that holy jewel that they came in time to waters that no vessels save those of the Teleri had known; and they came to the Enchaned Isles and escaped their enchantment...and at last they cast anchor in the Bay of Eldamar...

The Valar say they won't forgive them until one comes to plea, yet the one can't get to the Shores without a Silmaril.

When I was reading the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath, I was twitching with joy. Finally the Valar had gotten their act together and were going to finish Morgoth once and for all. They had decided to forgive the Noldor for the foolishness of one man six hundred years ago. And Morgoth was defeated....and then we hear the dialogue of Maedhros and Maglor -- they are bound by their oath, and they don't know who can release them.

It's not even said here that the sons of Feanor were forgiven. They were merely told to give up the Silmarils and to wait for judgement. That does not sound like forgiveness, and they were both sorrowful for their oath. They did not want the Silmarils for their beauty, they wanted the Silmarils to fulfill their oath.

The end of the Silmarillion is victorious. However, it is tainted with sorrow, with the foolishness of the Valar, with the folly of Feanor, and the sorrow of the unforgiven sons Maedhros and Maglor. It is not a Eucatastrophe. It is a victory that should have happened long ago (one Vala can outsmart nine?) -- I can hear the choruses of "then there would be no story" and that is what I myself would have done a long time ago. But that isn't good enough for me. A story is made up of characters, and if the characters are incompetent, childish Vala who wait for "the hour" because there is no free will...that does not add up into a Eucatastrophe.

[Kuruharan]

Because Feanor was a spoiled brat, the entire family was doomed. I don't know...but that sounds a wee bit unforgiving to me.

No. The entire family was “doomed” because they followed him of their own free will (except for Finarfin who turned back).

the sorrow of Maedhros and his brother Maglor

I’m not certain that the suffering of those two children of their father really counts for much. Actions matter.

On top of all that, they put a stipulation that one must come pleading for both elves and men -- and even then it was only a might.

Literary convention.

Even through all the bloodshed…the death of all the brave and noble men of Middle Earth

Here is a part of your argument that I don’t understand. There was plenty of slaughter in the War of the Ring, but you seem to feel that it was more eucatastrophic.

I believe you feel this way because the LOTR focused more personally on specific characters. If you read the account of the exact same thing in “Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age,” you probably don’t get that same feeling of eucatastrophe that you do from reading LOTR. This is because the style is different.

After everything they're not full of pity...

They’d been grossly offended, something the defenders of Feanor tend to gloss over.

Emphasis mine of course. Earendil who wanted to plead his case wasn't even allowed to come near the Valinor -- it's almost as if the Valar didn't even want to be moved to pity unles that one had a Silmaril.

That is what makes it eucatastrophic. Earendil overcame greater odds than Frodo because Earendil was contending with a greater force.

they are bound by their oath, and they don't know who can release them.

It's not even said here that the sons of Feanor were forgiven. They were merely told to give up the Silmarils and to wait for judgement. That does not sound like forgiveness, and they were both sorrowful for their oath. They did not want the Silmarils for their beauty, they wanted the Silmarils to fulfill their oath.

Their oath was wrong. They should have chosen to accept their disgrace. If they really were past the point of saving themselves, they could have worked to help others and have caused less damage.

The end of the Silmarillion is victorious. However, it is tainted with sorrow, with the foolishness of the Valar, with the folly of Feanor, and the sorrow of the unforgiven sons Maedhros and Maglor. It is not a Eucatastrophe.

The end of The Lord of the Rings is also victorious and tainted with sorrow, with the failing of the elves and dwarves, the inability of Frodo to be healed, and the continued diminishing of the Dunedain since Elessar was their last great flowering. Why is this a eucatastrophe and the Sil not?

Again, I think the answer lies in the style of the respective works.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Here is a part of your argument that I don’t understand. There was plenty of slaughter in the War of the Ring, but you seem to feel that it was more eucatastrophic.

This to me seems to me to be the essence of this question. It is not the "facts" themselves, but the manner in which they are recorded that inspires eucatastrophe in the reader.