LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 07 - The Mirror of Galadriel

[The Saucepan Man]

I have to disagree with both mark12_30 and Rimbaud concerning Celeborn. He hardly displays the skills of a consumate politician or diplomat in his botched initial address to Gimli, which Galadriel's admonishment is partially addressed towards. What's more he apologises - something that politicians never do.

And, if he couldn't care less what the Fellowship thinks of him, he wouldn't feel the need to apologise for his rash outburst.

My impression of him is of one so comfortable within his relationship with Galadriel that he gives no thought to her admonishment and is content to accept that he has spoken rashly and apologice for doing so. It's just that, for me, this whole episode simply doesn't square with his description as the wisest of Elves in Middle-earth.

[mark12_30]

And, if he couldn't care less what the Fellowship thinks of him, he wouldn't feel the need to apologise for his rash outburst.

Saucie, I think the apology would be regarded as common courtesy in any setting once the wrong was exposed, and it would not occur to Celeborn to neglect it whether he cared about the fellowship's opinion or no.

In terms of diplomacy-- the only elves I can think of who consider dwarves recipients of diplomacy are Rivendell and Galadriel; other elves seem to think of them as, well, several steps above orcs. "Have an eye on that dwarf!" Lorien was in the thick of the Durin's Bane mess, after all, and that was only a thousand years ago.

But I take your point anyway. Interacting with other cultures hasn't been on Celeborn's job description for a while, so diplomat isn't it either.

[Imladris]

Just sticking my nose in here for a bit,

My impression of him is of one so comfortable within his relationship with Galadriel that he gives no thought to her admonishment and is content to accept that he has spoken rashly and apologice for doing so. It's just that, for me, this whole episode simply doesn't square with his description as the wisest of Elves in Middle-earth.

Isn't his wisdom shown in his apology?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Saucie, I think the apology would be regarded as common courtesy in any setting once the wrong was exposed, and it would not occur to Celeborn to neglect it whether he cared about the fellowship's opinion or no.

A fair point. But the manner of his apology, and the general manner in which he addresses the Fellowship suggests to me that he is showing more here than bare courtesy.

Originally Posted by Imladris

Isn't his wisdom shown in his apology?

Yes, to a degree. But I question whether the "wisest of all" would have spoken the words requiring the apology in the first place. In the wisdom stakes, Galadriel trumps him by recognising the rashness of his words. And I can't imagine Elrond speaking so rashly (OK, he is Half-Elven, but you get the point). He is undoubtedly wise, but the wisest?

Ultimately, my point boils down to the fact that, as I see it, Celeborn's deeds do not match the description that we are given of his character, and he appears (to me) the weaker for it.

[Rimbaud]

Such scenes and apologies can be staged by the artful.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Just popping in to say that I've come from Stalker Central -- otherwise known as "Who's Online" -- where I saw that at the moment there are no fewer than seven people reading or replying to this thread!

I always suspected that this chapter would be a popular one, but wow!! I've ben loving the discussion in the last few weeks.

To make this at least a bit on topic: Celeborn seems to me to be the perfect mate for Galadriel. He is steady and dependable where she is perilous. He is both lesser than her, but also greater: he does not provide counsel as wise as his wife, but neither is he a threat to take the Ring. He could, perhaps, be a vision of what will happen to Galadriel after the Fellowship leaves. Having forsaken her dynamic desire between good and evil, she will fade into a rather bland and uninteresting 'wise and all powerful figure of the woods' who, strangely, has lost much of her power to compel. She will indeed diminish. . .

[The Saucepan Man]

*Dodges apples hurled by Celeborn fans*

Originally Posted by Rimbaud

Such scenes and apologies can be staged by the artful.

A nice thought, Rim. But why stage the reception of the Fellowship thus?

Originally Posted by Imladris

Are not even the wise allowed to make mistakes?

But Celeborn is "corrected" by Galadriel not just once, but twice. And the first instance occurs practically the first time that he speaks. As for Elves' relationships with Dwarves, he starts out on the right foot with Gimli, expressing a hope that the lifting of Lorien's ban on Dwarves might signify a renewed friendship between their races. I take your point that he was beset with grief at Gandalf's fall. But Galadriel was able to keep her emotions under control sufficently to perceive the folly in his words.

Originally Posted by drigel

Maybe the wisest among Sindar appears thusly as Celeborn does when compared to a Noldorian princess born in Aman..?..?

Ah, but he is "accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth", not simply wisest of the Sindar.

Of course, I am simply expressing my own reaction to the character, and I am most certainly not denying the impression that others may have formed. But perhaps it is more interesting to consider why Tolkien depicts Celeborn in the manner that he does. I think that the inimitable Prof Hedgethistle put it very well when he said:

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Celeborn seems to me to be the perfect mate for Galadriel. He is steady and dependable where she is perilous. He is both lesser than her, but also greater: he does not provide counsel as wise as his wife, but neither is he a threat to take the Ring. He could, perhaps, be a vision of what will happen to Galadriel after the Fellowship leaves. Having forsaken her dynamic desire between good and evil, she will fade into a rather bland and uninteresting 'wise and all powerful figure of the woods' who, strangely, has lost much of her power to compel. She will indeed diminish. . .

But, for me, there is still a mismatch between his deeds and his depiction. Is this perhaps intentional on Tolkien's part?

[drigel]

Sauce I agree with your conclusion. But, "Wisest of all elves of ME" could still apply to 'Born, but IMO, or my paltry attempt at making my point was that, with the exception of Elrond or Cirdan, would there be any other elf who could come even close to an equivilent relative to G? On his own, as being one of the "wise", or as a leader - he would stand out. Perfect mate yes - most def - the necessary counterweight in the relationship.
Hey this is Galadriels chapter anyways - all this 'born talk is distracting my contemplation on the Lady.. meowwwww

[Imladris]

But Galadriel was able to keep her emotions under control sufficently to perceive the folly in his words.

Control of emotions does not equal wisdom.

Maybe there are different kinds of wisdom? Sort of like the brainy professor who has no sense and the student who has sense but isn't the brightest bulb...Sense and brains are both "smart" -- just different kinds of smart.

Thus maybe your definition of "wise" is not the definition Tolkien had in mind.

[Bêthberry]

Since we seem to be keeping very good track of the argument here I will forego, as Fordim has, to provide specific quotations from people's posts. Truly, this discussion is, I think, representative of how 'the sum is greater than the parts' and a true testament to what Downers can achieve!

I too am loathe to suggest that Galadriel is 'evil' or has nefarious motives. Perhaps it was my reference to the satan--and the lowercase 's' is very significant here--as the being who prompted or challenged people to seek their best. The lowercase 's' clearly represents an early use of the word which bears no meaning to one of evil intent who works to destroy or usurp the divine plan.

Yet this confusion of feminine intention is very much part and parcel of the literary tradition of strong women, sorceresses or witches. Here I want to make some comparison to the Arthurian legends, where in some versions there is a clear distinction between the good Viviane and the evil Morgan le Fey. It all depends upon which author one reads. And in later traditions, even Viviane is portrayed as a woman of power which menaces men.

I bring this up also because of another important point of comparison, which perhaps should more properly be considered in the previous chapter on Lothlorien, but it bears upon the comparison here between The Shire and Lothlorien.

There is a magical, enchanted forest resplendent at the heart of Arthurian legend and that forest is very much connoted with feminine spellcraft and water. I refer to Brocéliande (pron. brOsA / EaNd), first (I believe) mentioned in Chretien de Troyes' Yvain, but part of the Arthurian legends from Geoffrey of Monmouth to Tennyson.

Brocéliande was a magical forest in Brittany. It still exists today, known now as the Forest of Paimpont and part of the tourist industry of Bretagne. (Broceliande

It was here that Viviane fell in love with Merlin, used the magic he had taught her to return him to his youthful self and inspire in him a shared loved. Here too they are buried, where Viviane is said to have woven for him a barrow of air where he yet remains.

Brocélainde in legend is also the site of an enchanted spring. These waters do not foretell the future but are said to have the power to bring forth rain (Goldberry's forte).

For those who enjoy medieval texts, here is an online version of Chretien de Troyes' Yvain

The significance, it seems to me, of all these literary allusions lies in the cauldron of story which was Tolkien's imagination. No one in particular will account for Tolkien's specific forest realm yet all suggest the material he was working with. Even if he did dislike the French and object to the Arthurian legends as being in err for their explicit Christian references. (There's a letter reference to that, which I shall dig up and return with.)

[Imladris]

Yes, to a degree. But I question whether the "wisest of all" would have spoken the words requiring the apology in the first place. In the wisdom stakes, Galadriel trumps him by recognising the rashness of his words. And I can't imagine Elrond speaking so rashly (OK, he is Half-Elven, but you get the point). He is undoubtedly wise, but the wisest?

Are not even the wise allowed to make mistakes? Celeborn has been around for a very long time -- I'm sure he does not have fond feelings for Dwarves, considering their race slaughtered Thingol, his kinsman. Also he had expected to be able to speak with Gandalf and when he learned that he had fallen in Moria because of a balrog, I'm sure that he can be pardoned for a bit of anger and frustration, especially with the Ring and the rising strength of Sauron to consider as well.

Simply, my point is this: it must have taken great humility to apologize to a dwarf. Humility, to me, is a sign of wisdom -- probably one of the greatest forms of wisdom. Humility is contrary to pride, which has been a prominent vice in all of the "bad guys" -- and as such, pride was their downfall. To me, humility is astonishing so wise and great a lord. All in all though, we don't know enough about Celeborn to judge him on this little incident.

[davem]

Why a Mirror?

Not a crystal ball, not a pack of cards, not Runestones, but a mirror. And a mirror reflects the viewer’s own image back at them. Well, in this case it reflects their inner self, their hopes, fears, desires. All well & good, except Frodo sees the Eye of Sauron.

But why would he see it in a mirror? Does it simply mean that Sauron has wrested control of the Mirror as he did of the palantiri? And how come Galadriel has also seen the Eye there?

Well, Galadriel did rebel, she was exiled from the West - perhaps it ‘reflects’ something in her nature back at her: her desire to rule, to control - certainly she claims to know Sauron’s mind. But what is Sauron’s mind - what does she mean? But still, why did Frodo see Sauron’s Eye in the Mirror?

We pass into an enclosed garden (a circle) & go down a flight of steps into a hollow (a circle within a circle). At the centre is a round basin(a circle within a circle within a circle). At the culmination of his vision Frodo sees, issuing from within a void, a single round eye, at the centre of which is a slit, ‘a window into nothing’, a void within a void. And from this void there is a pull, a negative ‘force’ - but it doesn’t pull Frodo - it pulls the Ring. The final circle.

Wheels within wheels within wheels within wheels. The Ring is the ultimate void - as much a ‘mouth’ as an ‘Eye’, it swallows all things - even the wearer’s own self in the end.

I see Morgoth here - seeking in the Void for the Secret Fire. As Nietzsche said, if you stare into an abyss long enough the abyss will start to stare back.

At the heart of Frodo’s vision, he sees ‘reflected’ the void, nothingness. Actually he sees the absence of Eru - for Eru is not in the Void (if the Secret Fire is not there, then neither is Eru, for the Secret Fire is with Him. Voids within Voids within Voids within Voids.

But the Eye within the Void is ‘searching’ for Frodo (or is it the Void within the Eye within the Void that is searching?).

I also see Ungoliant here - ever searching for ‘light’ (as Morgoth sought for the Secret Fire) to consume & transmute into the ‘nothingness’ of the void.

Back to the Beowulf lecture - man, alone, in a little circle of light, surrounded by an encroaching darkness always seeking to swallow him up, to take him within & within & within, deeper & deeper into the ‘nothingness that awaits’. It is the ‘nothingness’ within the heart of matter, at the heart of the world.

The Void is the absence of Eru - ‘salvation’ is beyond the ‘circles of the world’. Frodo has looked into into the Mirror & seen the ultimate void - the void within himself (as has Galadriel).

I suspect Tolkien is making a point here

To claim the Ring is to claim the void - Galadriel has pondered what she would do if the Ring came to her - & isn’t that the reason she also has seen the Eye? Isn’t that also what gives her the will to reject it?

She will ‘diminish, & go into the West, & remain Galadriel’, for what alternative is there?

Nothing

[drigel]

Given the acceptable canon..
Maybe the wisest among Sindar appears thusly as Celeborn does when compared to a Noldorian princess born in Aman..?..?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Wow, here last night I thought I had caught up with this thread! And again this morning! Forgive me if this post is not quite up with current thoughts as I am lagging behind by quite a few hours.

Yes, I tend to give Celeborn more credit for keeping his peace, perhaps he is well used to Galadriel’s little idiosyncrasies by now. But he does seem to give the unfortunate impression that he is thinking aloud in this chapter.

On morning stars, curiously both Jesus (Revelations) and Lucifer (Isaiah) are referred to as the morning star, Lucifer itself meaning morning or day star or Venus. But being Lutheran not Catholic, am unaware of this designation being placed on Mary. To my mind the title seems to refer to a brillant personage who was around before the dawn of the earth (note that that would be before Lucifer's rebellion)…the latter of which I believe, would not quite fit Galadriel or Mary. There goes my theory!

Child I think you hit upon something with the association of Galadriel with prophets. If she had taken up keeping Frodo’s ring, even if her rule would serve to widen that window on the West, bringing beauty and wisdom, how painful would it become once the propensity of the ring to debase her, took root. All would indeed “love her and despair”! I must say though, that she appears to have made excellent use of Vilya, and seems to have mastered that ring quite completely. It remains a marvel to me that Sauron did not guess earlier that one of the rings was hidden in that marvelous wood.


A bit more on Boromir…. I have not read the least two threads, actually given the comments in this one I confess I’m a little scared to, but suspect that I might be more sympathetic to the character than most. He is only human after all. But at this point you can really see the beginning of rapid psychological unraveling. It is almost as if Galadriel thoughts and Aragorn’s words to serve as a catalyst to doubt. I do not think in the end he covets the ring so much as the hope it has come to represent for him. And I find it odd that he, who has at every turn praised the many virtues of the Gondorian people, would look to something external to save them. But he has hope in Elendil’s sword as well as the ring and when both appear unattainable he snaps.

Now I must, run off and read what all I have missed!

[Aiwendil]

Fordim wrote:

Of course not…how about this as well: Galadriel as ‘sorceress’. I’m thinking here of the figure as we find her in the Homeric tradition, specifically Kirke and Kalypso from the Odyssey.

I must admit that this view makes me a bit uneasy. Or perhaps not specifically this view but a more general attitude that has emerged. Maybe I'm just too much of a feminist to look at this clearly - but the view of Galadriel as a feminine threat to a masculine quest disagrees with me. I think that perhaps we are all overstating the "perilous" aspect of Lorien and of Galadriel. Kirke and Kalypso (and Dido, while we're at it) are not at all on Odysseus's (or Aeneas's) side. None of them has any reason to desire the success of the male hero's quest. None of them is "good". Galadriel is most certainly good. She is part of the same group of authority figures as Gandalf and Elrond. She is unambiguously an ally (unlike, say, Denethor or Gollum). Yes, there is peril in Lorien. Yes, Galadriel is tempted by the Ring. But it is not an adventure, like the encounters with Kirke and Kalypso. It is perhaps a bit more like Aeneas's stop in Carthage - and yet that's fundamentally different as well. Dido opposed Aeneas's quest and actively sought to dissuade him from it. Here, it is Frodo who asks Galadriel to take the Ring, and she that refuses.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Kirke and Kalypso (and Dido, while we're at it) are not at all on Odysseus's (or Aeneas's) side. None of them has any reason to desire the success of the male hero's quest. None of them is "good".

Ah yes, but then again, none of them is really "evil" -- it was Medieval and Renaissance commentators who couched the "witches" as being wicked women trying to defeat the noble men. In the original context (and in our own modern readings, I would suggest) these women come across far more as alternatives to the hero's quest. The danger they represent to the male hero is not one of restraint ("I won't let you go") but of making the hero so comfortable and happy that he will forsake his quest ("I don't want to go").

davem has already pointed out how this is the real danger of Lorien and Galadriel; that the hero, Frodo, will give way to the appealing nature of this realm and allow himself to be overwhelmed by it. He does in fact do this when he offers Galadriel the Ring, and you make an excellent point Aiwendil when you point out how it is up to Galadriel herself to deny her own desires.

The real usefulness of linking Galadriel to the Homeric context is not, as I said above, to try to use that to 'supplant' the other contexts suggested, but to highlight how Galadriel, in this moment of her choosing, truly is "perilous" insofar as she is a good woman with incredible power, tempted to do an evil thing.