LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 07 - The Mirror of Galadriel

[Boromir88]

There's one quote in this chapter that strikes me as the difference between Elf Magic and "evil" magic.

Sam wonders about "Elf-Magic" and later Galadriel says...

"And you?" she said, turning to Sam. "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe, though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy."

It's apparent Galadriel (and probably the other Elves) don't call their powers "magic." To the mortal races (Hobbits, Men...etc) it's odd, it's a power they don't have, so they term it as "magic." Where it seems the Elves who have that power, don't see it as "magic" but more of as a "gift," or something they were born with.

Another thing, what's interesting is Galadriel makes a distinction between "Elf Magic" and "evil magic." She calls it the "deceits of the Enemy." If you think of Saruman and Sauron their magic is very deceitful. If you look at deceitful, there's other terms like "fake, artificial, dirty work." Then we look at Saruman, his magic is very deceitful, he makes it sound sweet and "honeyed." But, really all it is, is "fake promises." He uses his voice to persuade people, he fills them with "deceitful hopes" to get them to fight for him (Dunlanders) or to get people to join him (Gandalf). Then we look at Sauron. I think we can go right to the One Ring. This would be considered "magical" by Sam, or some "non-magical" person, it grants them invisibility, command Sauron's Armies, command the Wraiths...etc. However, that is very deceitful, it offers you your greatest desires, but is very deceitful. It may grant your wishes, but it doesn't show you the "bad" part. Look at Galadriel, she wanted to wield the Ring to cast down Sauron, but she knew that wasn't likely, and so she passed the test and refused the Ring. Look at Faramir, he said he would not pick it up if it lie on the road for he doesn't want anything the Ring has to offer. It will "trick" you into taking it just so it can get back to it's master. So the Ring is also very deceitful.
And there's even more deceit, or "artificiality" about the ring, in the fact of being invisible. Sure you're invisible, but you aren't to the Ringwraiths, who just happen to be Sauron's servants sent out to find the Ring. So more deceit.

Now look at "Elf Magic." Elf Magic, some examples the flood of the River Bruinen, Lothlorien, Mirror of Galadriel. These aren't anything of deceit. The Flood was caused by Elrond to stop the Nazgul from crossing. Lothlorien is a peaceful, beautiful place without a "blemish," it's like you're in a dream. The Mirror of Galadriel shows you the past, present, or future. Shows you what has happened, what will happen, or what could happen.

[Firefoot]

Originally posted by Boromir88

As Boromir said "Maybe it was only a test," that's what it appears to be. The Lady just testing the Fellowship members, seeing if they would hold true.

The answer to this is found a little later in the chapter, when Frodo offers Galadriel the Ring. She says, "Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting." So yes, she was testing them. I think that what is important is not what she was doing, however, but why she was doing it. Just before Galadriel tested the Fellowship, she said, "your Quest stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will fail, to the ruin of all. Yet hope remains while all the Company is true." (One of my favorite lines in the book.) So maybe she was seeing whether all of them intended to remain true? (Hilde made some interesting comments on this, as well.)

On Boromir, I think that perhaps she offered him the Ring. He says she offers something, and is this not what Boromir covets most? Sam sees this most clearly of all, perhaps, and shows it when speaking to Faramir. ("He wanted the Enemy's Ring!") Or, maybe he was offered something to do with the defeat of Sauron, and "rule" over Minas Tirith (for which he sees the Ring as a nearly-essential tool). I can see why Boromir would be extremely defensive about it. He already has premonitions about entering Lorien in the first place, and now Galadriel, who he has very likely heard tales about, is offering what he wants most.

Contrast this to what she may have offered Frodo: relief from the Ring, perhaps? Though the Ring is not yet such a heavy burden on Frodo as it would come to be, many times he has shown his reluctance to take (and keep!) the Ring, even though he said he would take it to destroy it. He offered it to Gandalf first, and then at Rivendell he expresses his wish to be able to remain there. Now he is offering it to Galadriel. Whether Frodo actually failed at Mt. Doom (time enough for that discussion then), had Galadriel taken it Frodo really would have failed. Elrond specifically says "On him alone any charge is laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need." At any rate, Galadriel says to Frodo, "You have preceived my thourhg more clearly than many that are accounted wise." Had Galadriel offered Frodo relief from his burden, perhaps Frodo would have interpreted this to mean that Galadriel actually did desire the Ring.

So, in sharp contrast of each other: Boromir, desiring to have the Ring, and Frodo, desiring to be rid of it!

[Encaitare]

Boromir88 brought up a great point about the difference between "Elf-Magic" and "Evil Magic." It's evident that the Elves are very close to nature, so it seems to me that the Elf-Magic is a sort of natural magic, whereas Evil Magic is more supernatural.

The Elves' magic is based off of that which they can create inherently -- Galadriel's Mirror, for example. She seems to empower or "activate" the Mirror by breathing on it. The elven cloaks, lembas, and rope which we see in the next chapter all have magical qualities: they respectively can make the wearer all but invisible, can sustain a person for a long time, and can support great weights and untie when necessary. To quote Mr. Hedgethistle over in the Music and Magic in Middle Earth thread:

The way I like to think about the magical items, moments, places and persons in M-E is through analogy with our modern way of controlling and ordering the world: technology. Elves have a technique that they use in making rope which means that it comes untied when you need it to. This is perfectly sensible and normal to them but unknown to Sam, who calls it 'magic'. In the same manner, Sauron knows how to make the One Ring; his precise technique and motivation are different, but the process is similar -- he has a technique that is unknown to others, with the result that it appears magical.

As Fordim points out, the magic, whether for good or evil, is like technology. There are those who know how it works, and can make it work for them, and then there are those who do not have this knowledge, and it seems amazing, almost magical, to them.

So when does the natural become the supernatural? When corruption occurs. Sources of Elven power are even natural in appearance: the basin of the Mirror is upon a base carved like a tree, and Nenya resembles a star. To the Elves, nature is power. Since the Elven Rings are closely tied into nature, they are not as "binding" as the One Ring. Twice, Elven Rings were given away freely and for the better good: Gil-Galad gave Vilya to Elrond, and Cirdan gave Narya to Gandalf. With the Elven or natural magic, what you see is not always what you get, but it is not malicious. The supernatural sort of magic controls others, as is seen with the One Ring, and also with the nine rings of Men and the voice of Saruman. They deceive, as Boromir said. They contort reality, or try and bend people's minds to their will. When the boundaries of nature are overstepped and the domination of others becomes the goal, natural becomes supernatural, and the potential of good withers.

I do hope this was coherent; I'm trying to get these thoughts out before I have to leave for orchestra.

[Bêthberry]

Oh, indeed, there is much here to discuss. Like davem, I must register my disappointement with the Blanchett Galadriel--but not to disparage those who were happy with the movie's queen of the elves. I was disappointed on two levels. First, that she appeared to look so much younger than Elrond. I know the text tells us that there was no sign of age upon either Celeborn or Galadriel, yet I could not help but wonder why Galadriel's son in law, Elrond looked older than she, with his receding hair line and furrows of worry. I wondered why we could not have a more mature but handsome and beautiful Galadriel, perhaps played by someone such as Susan Sarandron, or Michelle Pfieffer, or even Angelica Huston (with blonde hair). An older Catherine Deneuve is what I would have wanted. Also, the pyrotechnics of the temptation scene disappointed me. We had Gandalf's great scene in Bag End where Ian McClellan handled the scene himself, without any special effects. Why did Galadriel's temptation have to be delivered via the skills of someone other than the actress? But this is a diversion and, I repeat, my own personal response. I think I can understand how someone who thrills to the special effects of movies would enjoy this Galadriel.

About book-Galadariel I have much to say, particularly cocerning her role with the Mirror, which several of you have already admirably discussed..

Estelyn posted
Her gaze seems to be a part of her power; not only does she test each member silently, but also shows Gimli ?love and understanding? in the ?heart of an enemy?. That opens his heart, prompting his gallant reaction and the courtly love which has often been discussed, as well as preparing the way for his friendship with Legolas.

davem posted:
Galadriel says that if she took the Ring ?All shall love me & despair. This is significant - Sauron is served by slaves who are motivated by fear. Galadriel?s ?slaves? would serve her out of love . She would be more dangerous than Sauron, more powerful, because while Sauron?s slaves would wish to be free of his rule, Galadriel?s never would. Sauron?s slaves would slay themselves out of terror of him, Galadriel?s out of love for her. We can see here the potential for a terrible fundamentalism in her followers: slaying others & sacrificing their own lives at her wish. I don?t think Tolkien pursues this idea anywhere else - his fanatics are either driven by fear or desire. But ?love? as a motivating force for atrocities is at least a potential danger in Middle earth. All that said, it is strange that her taking & wielding of the Ring could inspire ?love? in her subjects - in what way would they ?love? her?

Hilde Bracegirdle posted
Until now I had always felt that Galadriel was testing the character of each in the fellowship with a purely benevolent motive, but at this reading I had the distinct notion that she was weighing her own temptation at the same time, and that her impetus for searching their thoughts might have been prompted by both the proximity of the Ring and her own desire for it. If she had found them any weaker I wonder if it would have affected the ultimate outcome of her test.

Boromir88 posted
Now look at "Elf Magic." Elf Magic, some examples the flood of the River Bruinen, Lothlorien, Mirror of Galadriel. These aren't anything of deceit. The Flood was caused by Elrond to stop the Nazgul from crossing. Lothlorien is a peaceful, beautiful place without a "blemish," it's like you're in a dream. The Mirror of Galadriel shows you the past, present, or future. Shows you what has happened, what will happen, or what could happen.

Encaitare posted
So when does the natural become the supernatural? When corruption occurs. Sources of Elven power are even natural in appearance: the basin of the Mirror is upon a base carved like a tree, and Nenya resembles a star. To the Elves, nature is power.

Firefoot posted
The answer to this is found a little later in the chapter, when Frodo offers Galadriel the Ring. She says, "Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting." So yes, she was testing them. I think that what is important is not what she was doing, however, but why she was doing it. Just before Galadriel tested the Fellowship, she said, "your Quest stands upon the edge of a knife. Stray but a little and it will fail, to the ruin of all. Yet hope remains while all the Company is true." (One of my favorite lines in the book.) So maybe she was seeing whether all of them intended to remain true? (Hilde made some interesting comments on this, as well.)

I am going to step back from all these approaches for a bit and suggest something different for Galadriel's power. I am not going to be as shocking as davem when he, in the previous chapter, drew a similarity between Boromir and the Nazi youth who augmented Hitler's armied. But at least initially my comparison might be shocking.

Most of us here, I think, are aware that Tolkien was drawing heavily on imagery of the Virigin Mary in his depiction of the elven Queen. (This, I suspect, makes Celeborn similar to St. Joseph, the patron saint of cuckholded husbands and in some way might account for his seeming disappearance in the face of Galadriel's power. To my mind, the ancient Catholics had a good sense of humour.) Yet I have been uneasy with this artistic attempt to combine the medieval courtly regime with the veneration of Mary. Mary is for me, as she is for Diane Schoemperlen in her recent novel (Our Lady of the Lost and Found), "the perfect house guest" rather than a female available for male adoration. But this is really a digression....

I am going to suggest that Galadriel's role in this chapter, particularly in her seeing into the heart of the members of the Fellowship and in allowing Sam and Frodo to view the Mirror, is more akin to an ancient role in the Old Testament. Galadriel is an adversary, not in the sense of being an opponent, but in the sense of challenging human activity for the purposes of trying it, of making it firmer and more resolute. Those of you who know the old Hebrew Bible might know the term satan, not as a diabolical agent who opposes God but as an angel who, not necessarily malevolent, opposes human desires for the purpose of warning them against a bad path.

This would explain why Galadriel claims she will not give counsel, as she is not a counsellor.

I will not give you counsel, saying do this, or do that. For not in doing or contriving, nor in choosing between this course and another, can I avail; but in knowing what was and is, and in part also what shall be.

The effect of her gaze is rendered thus:

Then they sighed and felt suddenly weary, as those who have been questioned long and deeply, though no words had been spoken openly.

How does Sam describe to Frodo his experience?

She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance...

Merry says it was almost exactly what he felt. And the others agree.

All of them, it seemed, had fared alike: each had felt that he was offerred a choice between a shadow full of fear that lay ahead, and something that he greatly desired ...

It is Boromir who speaks the less allusively of what Galadriel offers:

but almost I should have said that she was tempting us, and offering what she pretended to have the power to give. It need not be said that I refused to listen.

If indeed Galadriel is testing the Fellowship, as the satan urged Yahweh to test Job, in order to determine Job's true righteousness, we can only wish that at this point Boromir had had the courage of mind to listen to what Galadriel was holding out to him .

This is also the test of the Mirror of Galadriel, that she shows Sam and Frodo what they most desire, as a lesson in their true devotion. Sam can save The Shire only by, at this point, not succumbing to his desires and returning to it. Yet it is not a desire he must turn aside completely.

With Frodo, of course, the test of his desires becomes also a test of her own. Yet I think it is important to recognise that Galadriel's powers lie in making the members of the Fellowship more aware of their own role and desires, if they choose to listen. It is a test of self-knowledge and their own integrity. This is the true perilousness of the perilous realm: to be sought after by the greatest of your own desires, yet to withstand them.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Zipping in and out, enjoying the read but with no time to respond in an organized way. Still, a few ideas off the top of my head...

Bethberry, how interesting that you point to the Hebrew Bible in your analysis of Galadriel. In my personal reading of the text, I have often sensed this connection with the ancient Hebrew text. Your description is apropos:

Galadriel is an adversary, not in the sense of being an opponent, but in the sense of challenging human activity for the purposes of trying it, of making it firmer and more resolute.

While acknowledging the aspect of Satan that you bring up and the possibility of applying it in this context, my reading of these passages is somewhat different than your own. Look more carefully at the quotation above. You have given us the perfect description of the biblical "prophet": the individual who seeks to compel people and society to search within themselves and to come to grips with what they find.

I do not know if you are familiar with the works of Abraham Heschel, particularly his two volumes entitled The Prophets. They are among my favorites. These books explore many themes which I've always felt also applied to Galadriel: sensitivity and awareness of evil; the inevitable tension between admonition and compassion (both of which I see encapsualated in her behavior and words); the message of doom versus the message of hope.

Of course, the Hebrew prophets were not the only ones who performed such a function. I think we can sense the same in medieval mystics like Theresa, Birgitta, and Mechthild; even the dervishes of the Moslem world; and the shamans of the Ural-altaic peoples.

Whenever I read the interaction between Galadriel and Frodo, I have this odd sense that she is an Elf who has somehow ascended to another realm and learned something of the "secrets" there and thus has gained the ability to challenge hostile powers or spirits. Eru's name is, of course, never mentioned in LotR, and the Valar themselves seem very distant. Yet in Galadriel's presence I have the clear feeling that Frodo has a glimpse of what many of us today would call 'holy'. Davem's mention of faerie may be akin to this: perhaps we are describing the same thing with different words.

Lorien is the point on earth that seems closest to the West and Aman (even more than the Havens), and Galadriel seems to be its "gatekeeper". The fact that her own past is so flawed makes this all the more interesting. In her presence, Frodo of the Shire must have felt a bit like Dorothy awakening to the realization that this isn't Kansas anymore!

Strange thoughts at 2 in the morning when I should be in bed asleep!

One last impression.... We often speak of Galadriel as the prime example of a powerful female character in LotR. Yet sometimes I wonder about this. To me, at times, she seems almost genderless, if such a thing is possible. (Perhaps this ties in with the Virgin Mary, an issue that others can better address?)

Does anyone else view Galadriel as "genderless", or do you see her in a different, more feminine, light?

[drigel]

I would be remiss if I didnt throw down my opinion on my fav. chaper(s) in the books. Perhaps JRRT was hinting at allusions to Mary in her character, I can see why there would be some who draw that conclusion. I would not call her genderless either. For me, from read #1 back in the day, the wonder and interest came from the fact that here is an elf who was and Elf. The personification of what was being laid down in the treatment of Lorien itself. An embodiment of the Elder days. As if it werent wonderous enough for us to get a glimpse of a bygone time/imagination walking with hobbits in ME, here we have a moment to ponder an even more glorious/heroic age that is more ancient than what we are experiencing.

This was later reinforced by JRRT's choice of treatment of the character evolution in The Silm. Here was an Elf Lady who is in ME, and remembers walking in a Valinor that was illuminated by the Two Trees. The same Elf who turned down a request from Feanor himself. Strong woman indeed. Apprenticing with Melian for how many years..?

Her temptation of the fellowship was for me logical. She is not a councilor as already proven. She was a major player in events. Her participation in the White councils shows this. If she was at Rivendell at the time of the formation of the fellowship i could see her sitting down with each and every member, doing what she did in Lorien, testing and challenging hearts...

As for elf magic /technology - yes i agree most of what Sam calls magic is simply a result of a culture of people who live for thousands of years and have gained an Understanding of things in their world. But i would say there is 5-10% that is Mystery that probably comes from their Fea.

The movie treatment - Blanchett as a choice - ok - could have been better. Her temptation scene treatment - rediculous. I do like PJ's treatment of Lorien itself a wonderfull quick glimpse (too quick) at the "other side" of the elvish experience - most scenes at night with the wonderfull lighting, dangerous, intriguing, Mysterious.

[Bêthberry]

A very hurried and rushed reply....

[bChild[/b] posted
We often speak of Galadriel as the prime example of a powerful female character in LotR. Yet sometimes I wonder about this. To me, at times, she seems almost genderless, if such a thing is possible. (Perhaps this ties in with the Virgin Mary, an issue that others can better address?)

hmm. We get into many kinds of problems here. Galadriel had a daughter and grandchildren. She has a husband, but as Estelyn and Aiwendil suggest, his depiction is mixed--Galadriel even 'corrects' him at one point, does she not?

"... And if it were possible, one would say that at the lat Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria." [spoken by Celeborn]

He would be rash indeed that said that thing," said Galadriel gravely.

My understanding of the Catholic tradition of Mary is that she remained a virgin even after bearing Christ. (The concept of virginity is related to purity rather than corporeal fact.) Some traditions say that she and Joseph never had children; others, that they did. Others more knowledgeable than I about the Catholic tradition will have more to say, but to me Mary is usually represented without the stain of human sexuality but nevertheless has gender as the Mother of God.

Particularly in the interactions with Gimli, Galadriel is represented as part of the courtly love tradition (for Tolkien's view of this, see letter #43 to his son Michael). Tolkien describes the best of the tradition as " the highest ideal of love between man and woman." Particularly with the exchange of Galadriel's lock of hair, which could easily be an eroticised object, I think the characterisation stays firmly within a gendered depiction of Galadriel, but one well removed from sexual connotations.. But then, Tolkien's tone removes much sexual connotation from his characterisation. Perhaps it is this high tone ("free from dross", if I am remembering jHelen's thread correctly) which creates your sense of a genderless Galadriel?

To my regret, I do not know Abraham Herchel's [i]The Prophets[/b]--something I should redress I think. My understanding of prophets is that they carry God's message to others, they speak for God in His name. Would this be possible in a work of Middle-earth, particularly one where Eru's name is not mentioned? This gets us into the realm of Tolkien's allusions ("consciously so in the revision" as I recall Littlemanpoet's excellent thread). Given that LotR does not make explicit the cosmology of TheSilm, I myself can not see Galadriel as a phrophet (prohetess?) in this text. For this reason, I preferred to think of her as a challenger who helps stimulate the members of the Fellowship to reflect upon their roles and the self-knowledge and self-discipline which will be required of them.

davem has asked me, when he repped my previous post, to pursue my ideas further and explain what exactly Galadriel is up to, but alas I have no more time now to devote to posts--later tonight perhaps.

I'm sure that others will take up Child's very interesting idea that Lothlorien is somehow closer to the West than the rest of Middle-earth.