The Importance of Being Denethor

[davem]

Well, Kransha has put the case well in his 'hagiography' of Denethor, but i can't let it stand, lest others be seduced

I have to say that while Denethor seems, as Tolkien says, more than capable of reading men's hearts, he is incapable of reading his own. He is simply unable to accept that anyone else could rule better than himself (or perhaps he simply doesn't care whether anyone else could - he has the rule & that's it. What he forgets (or chooses to ignore) is that he is not King. He swears an oath to rule till the King comes back, but plays around with the the letter of the law till he convinces himself that that possibility can never happen.

It seems he values the letter of an oath rather than its spirit. Oathbreaking is to be punished with 'vengeance' - yet how does Denethor understand the nature of an oath?

As ruler he has an obligation to put the good of the realm & people first - 'The rule of Gondor is mine & no other man's[/i]' - this is a meaningless statement of simple fact: it adds nothing, it is simply saying 'I'm in charge!'

Denethor, unfortunately, has identified himself with Gondor - he is Gondor in his own mind - he sees no difference between himself & the realm, so that if he falls Gondor falls, if he surrenders - to Sauron or to Aragorn - Gondor surrenders. In short he has identified himself with his role & lost his humanity in the process. What we see in his final moments is a whining coward, or a lost child, perhaps, crying over the loss of his 'son' who probably symbolises for him his 'house' - his rule, his power. What he has doen to Faramir is what he has done to his realm - thrown it away in his madness & he is now crying over the milk he has spilt, & has decided he will trash the house because he can't get it back into the bottle.

He is (was) a competent tactician, but his motivation was saving his own power base, not the good of his people.

[|QUOTE] So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wait, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand."[/QUOTE]

No they don't - no 'Great Lord' does that - Theoden may have done it with Theodred, but he was old & broken when he did so - Denethor is neither. How can he possibly justify 'spending his sons' when he can 'still wield a brand'? Whatever that is, it is not 'wise', it is callous. And to speak (to even be able to think of his sons as something that can be 'spent', shows how far he has fallen.

He fears his 'body will grow timid' - why - only because his mind & heart have already. He is like the First World War generals, sitting safely in their war rooms, miles from the front, 'spending' their country's 'sons'.

Of course there are reasons for his behaviour & choices, but not good ones. We can see his character developing all through his life into what it becomes at the last. Basically, Denethor is incapable of doing anything but rule others - a steward should be a servant, but Denethor has never, it seems, considered himself a 'steward'. He doesn't have the right or the authority to reject Aragorn's claims out of hand - which is what he does, because he asks no-one's advice in the matter - no his councellors, his allies, or even his surviving son's. He acts like he is King, but he isn't. In a sense, his desire for the Ring has overwhelmed him - but that's because it was already in his nature to be overwhelmed by it. Its interesting to see that someone can be taken over by the Ring without even having seen it - because the 'Ring' is not just the physical object itself, its more, its desire for power & control.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Excellent topic, Kransha! You put well-researched facts together to show the whole picture. Denethor is another example for the depth of Tolkien's characterization - no black or white here! I'd like to add one thing that I noticed (Encaitare touched on it briefly) - history, including family history, repeats itself when we do not learn from it. Denethor suffered from his father's favoritism towards Thorongil, whom he perceived as his rival, and what does he do as a father? The same thing! It didn't take modern psychology and knowledge about dysfunctional families to be aware of that - it shows up in early Bible accounts as well. (See Jacob, who didn't learn from his father's mistake in favoring Esau and did the same with Joseph... )

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Absolutely Estelyn, no black and white here. Not perfect like Aragorn, Denethor is arguably the most complex character in the entire works of Tolkien. I would ask something myself here (begging your pardon Kransha). Are there any others among us who like Denethor precisely because he is such a 'bad' good guy? Villains are fascinating to me, and I have always considered Denethor a villain, albeit a villain with many admirable traits.

The film representation of the Steward was possibly Peter Jackson's most grievous error. He turned this dream of a character into somewhat of a pantomime villain (at least in my book). Clearly Denethor can be established in different ways (only a couple of posts into this thread and we discover that!) but for me he will remain a dastardly political leader full of inner turmoil and regret. Very human, and fallen.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Kransha! I'm shocked! Nay dismayed!! Given your predeliction for the Bard and obvious admiration for Denethor, how could you have failed to note the ways in which he is a tragic hero?? Like all really great tragic heroes he is both someone we admire and someone we fear or even dislike (I love Hamlet, but would not want to be trapped in a castle with him; Lear is monumental but terrifies me; Othello and Macbeth are both twerps, but greatly so).

For me, the hallmark of a tragic hero is somebody trapped by his own greatness -- that is, the very qualities that make him admirable are what ensure his downfall (again, to cite from Shakespeare: Hamlet's intelligence is what makes his situation so difficult -- a stupid person would just kill Claudius without bothering to consider the consequences; Othello's abilities as a soldier make him unable to understand women): what could be more true of Denethor. He is the Steward of Gondor in every way, and as you have shown he is the greatest of all Stewards -- at least for a very long time. But that is a tragic position: the fulfilment of his role in this world is to forsake that role; the moment of apotheosis for the Steward is the moment at which he lays aside that role for someone else. Can you imagine Denethor as a gentleman of arms and not the Steward? Of course not -- that role, be necessity (historical, providential, personal) is his identity, without it he is nobody.

I think that this helps explain why he is like everybody (brilliant point Kr): he is the summation and embodiment of all that is great in Men; in fact, he is the absolute Man -- which means in him we find our own natures expressed in the most wonderful, and in their most horrible, form. He is not Aragorn, the Man who is more than men, and thus the only one capable of defeating Sauron. Denethor is, however, the Man who is the best of men, but within the limited abilities of men: like Hamlet, he is smarter and more noble than any other in his world, but this intelligence puts him at odds with the powers about him; like Othello and Macbeth he is the greatest soldier, but as a consequence he is unable to form lasting or healthy family relationships; like Lear he is the only one in his world whose eyes are capable of looking the full nature of reality in the eye, but doing so drives him to despair and madness.

It's hard for us to see the full tragic sweep of Denethor because we come in only near the end of his story: he's already had his fall, and is concluding the final cathartic sweep of his action. The story is not, after all, his story. Thanks to the kind of work that Kransha has done for us here, we can see his whole story and appreciate Tolkien's achievement.

I think the real function of Denethor is that he demonstrates how Aragorn is a hero beyond tragedy: Aragorn is a Man for whom his greatness is not a burden, nor is it dangerous, or he is guided by a faith and a light that transcends the limits of the world; Frodo is not capable of tragedy, not posessing the requisite greatness from which to fall (he himself admits that he does not possess wisdom or strenght, both of which Aragorn has in spades).

Denethor is, oddly enough, the clearest mirror we have of ourselves in Middle-Earth -- expanded in our capacities to the greatness of the greatest Men, and warped in our desires to the most despairing vision of our insignificance. Our reaction to him is thus appropriately mixed: we love him for what he is, hate him for what he does, and are terrified by how much he reminds us of ourselves.

[Kransha]

Tuor, I must, as others have done, applaud you. I had not searched much of Tolkien’s Letters for Denethor material. I found one tidbit, but it was so little that it did not merit inclusion. Your quote is interesting, if a little foreboding. There is certainly some evidence that Denethor, after the war, might’ve been headed for a reign more tyrannous than righteous. Of all the Stewards, he suffered most from the ruler mentality, which also helps explain his great hostility and suspicion, thinking everyone is out to oust him from his mighty roost. I think that many mannish leaders from those times would have ended up tyrannical in some respects. It is the same principle borne by Ring seduction…It is hard for even the noblest of men to resist power. The Ring represents a much greater well of power than Stewardship, so it tempts greater men. Who knows what would’ve happened if Denethor got near the Ring?

Kuruharan, I agree with you on technicality, but I must argue another point. I do not wholly agree with the fact that Denethor is good, gone bad, but I have chosen a side and will dutifully defend it, even if my points are moot. Yours, of course, are very good, and I will retaliate with, what I hope, is likewise. Though I agree with the fact that Denethor was more of a mind to have Faramir follow his own devices, he was still, even if unintentionally, thinking in the best wishes of his ‘un-favored’ child. He didn’t want Faramir to play ‘second fiddle’ as you so aptly put it; he wanted Faramir to be like Boromir. This brings up a rather interesting point which one might consider. Denethor did support Boromir over Faramir, though, in my opinion, he loved them both. If he did support the mind-set and actions of Boromir, perhaps this reflects another circumstance.

Faramir’s gallantry is often forgotten, and a certain aspect was cut fully from the movie. That aspect was Faramir’s ability to resist the temptation of the Ring. Faramir tells Frodo that he would not take it if he found it by the wayside. He is miraculously unaffected by the thing that effects everyone else. Perhaps he would be the person Denethor thought he should be if he was tempted by the One Ring. He would seem more human, more like his father, and, despite that temptation, be seen as something of a man with more initiative and goals to strive for. The Ring tempts even the Elves, a very human quality which they possess, but that same addiction and seduction does nothing to the Captain of Gondor, now does it? If it did, the character of Faramir that we know would be severely changed, but the story would be comparatively different and less interesting. I think that another failing of PJ is doing such a thing to Faramir. It adversely affected everyone else as well. If Faramir, as he was portrayed in the movie, had been tempted, his personality would be more like Denethor’s, like his father wanted him to be, which reverses the crucial plot point that Faramir and Denethor are different. In the movie, Faramir ‘breaks free’ of his want and desire to please his father, and lets Frodo go with the Ring, but that is still confusing. This cinematic change of heart does not explain Denethor’s deep-rooted disappointment in Faramir. If Faramir were trying to please Denethor so much, why would Denethor dislike him? In the books, it is evident that, even though Faramir desires his father to love him, he is not as eager to please, and does not attempt to act in the way that his father wishes.

Boromir88, I believe that you have struck on a concept I raised, in greater detail, which was the theory of Denethor’s actual, physical sanity at the time of the Siege of Gondor. Some say defending Minas Tirith, and sending Faramir to Osgiliath, was a strategic failing. It is hard to argue with this, as not many points can be raised to the contrary. But, as you said, his presence on the whole was essential. Aragorn and Gandalf were not in Minas Tirith to defend it before him, and he still managed to keep it standing. The important point is that, in the movie (I’m afraid I can’t stop using references to PJ’s failings), Faramir is defending Osgiliath the whole time, after a foray into Ithilien. Correct me if I’m wrong, but that means that Denethor was the one who had set up Osgiliath’s defense, since it was being attacked at the time that Faramir was in Ithilien with Frodo, Sam, and Gollum. So, Denethor at least had the competence to set up generic defenses, and still heralded his people. Your quote helps this theory, and is greatly reminiscent of Theoden’s film-recovery (prior to his exorcism ala White Wizard). Of course, the book sheds that event in a different light, in fact, in a different filter, whereas the movie sheds Denethor in an equally different light. He carries a sword and a hauberk of mail in the movie to ward off indolence only, not to be a courageous leader.

Ah, master davem, our paths cross at last. Let me respond to you as best I can.

Originally Posted by davem

]I have to say that while Denethor seems, as Tolkien says, more than capable of reading men's hearts, he is incapable of reading his own. He is simply unable to accept that anyone else could rule better than himself (or perhaps he simply doesn't care whether anyone else could - he has the rule & that's it. What he forgets (or chooses to ignore) is that he is not King. He swears an oath to rule till the King comes back, but plays around with the the letter of the law till he convinces himself that that possibility can never happen.

This is interesting, but possibly does not delve deep enough. A human psyche is a hard thing to understand, even for the esteemed Prof. T. himself. He was at least grooming Boromir for a role as King. The fact is, even if he is self-centered, it is merely a mortal quality, one of a tragic hero (to be touched on later). He loves his sons, and would doubtless be proud to see them on the throne. But, your point gets my little, teensy-weensy mind to thinking again.

The absence of Finduilas, Denethor’s wife, may have played an important role in his persona. Many fathers, without mothers to assist them, begin to take on maternal qualities. Many Downers here are mothers (or fathers), so you may…or may not know what I mean by this, but here we go anyway. Denethor may have assumed some qualities that a mother might show, one of those being a sort of over-protectiveness. Fathers can be this way as well, an I’m trying not to stereotype, but I mean, simply, that, without his wife or father, Denethor reverted to a very hermit-like man, in some ways, a bit reclusive and alienated, and, I admit, very suspicious. He was grooming both his sons for Stewardship, and was determined not to fail them, or let them become so malleable that they could be pushed aside by a “dotard chamberlain of an upstart.” To touch upon what Estelyn said, I think that Denethor’s own upbringing may have had some effect on his raising of Faramir and Boromir, except for the aforementioned dual-parent-syndrome.

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Kransha! I'm shocked! Nay dismayed!! Given your predeliction for the Bard and obvious admiration for Denethor, how could you have failed to note the ways in which he is a tragic hero?? Like all really great tragic heroes he is both someone we admire and someone we fear or even dislike (I love Hamlet, but would not want to be trapped in a castle with him; Lear is monumental but terrifies me; Othello and Macbeth are both twerps, but greatly so).

Shocked and dismayed, are you? Well, I am shocked and dismayed that you have the nerve to call the great Macbeth, Thain of Cawdor, Glamis, AND King of all Scotland, a twerp...even if I do agree with you. Let me assure you, I could argue such a point for ages...but I digress.

You make a good point, Fordim, as always. In fact, the point is fascinating. Denethor, unlike many other characters, does not seem to exemplify the principles of a bildungsromans, generic or otherwise. There is a story arc, and sub-plot for Denethor, and he does change, which eventually results in his self-immolation, but he is predominantly a character who effects other characters, a point who exemplifies characteristics, good and bad, of all the other points on the spectrum, and they move around him. Of the four wheels of the proverbial LotR automobile, he is possibly one. One might claim that Elrond is such a character in The Fellowship, a wheel axle which allows the others to turn. Denethor is the penultimate mortal man. Aragorn is too perfect to be fully related to, so we turn to the lesser characters of men. The Hobbits are like us, and they are prime protagonists, so we seek out knowledge of them, vut we see ourselves in Theoden, Eowyn, Boromir, Faramir, and Denethor. They are part of the Shakespearian influence, I believe, all archetypal of certain endowments that the Classical Greats presented.

If you want to get Bardian on me, though, I’ll willingly seek some farfetched allegory. I know that Master Tolkien did not like allegory (cordially), though I suppose Shakespeare may have loved it. I think there is already a thread that compares Tolkien to Will somewhere, so I won’t steer the topic off course, but the topic is Denethor, so I think I manipulate that to my own whims *insert oodles of maniacal, Bela Lugosi-esque laughter herein*. Denethor, like the animals of the ecologic biosphere, has his own niche in Tolkien’s work. Many of Tolkien’s niches, as much as I hate to say so, are more like dues ex machinas, (Ex: Eagles, Erkenbrand, and even Elrond in some ways…Hey! They all start with the letter E! I think I’ve hit on some deep philosophical discovery!) He is not, though he easily could be. He is in a position where it might have been convenient to make him devoid of personality, and simply a mean old coot. I think that Jackson, in a way, did make him a dues ex machina, for his purpose is served without motive. Tolkien did him a far greater justice in the end. Other characters are more crucial than Denethor, but his niche is still unique. He’s not a King, not a Warrior, not a Madman, not an Innocent…he’s somewhere between everyone else, part of all the other types, and essential as well. His small, navigable course also helps to direct the path of Pippin, Gandalf, Aragorn, Faramir, and, before RotK, Boromir. His actions have a profound emotional effect on many characters who never knew him before, unlike two long-time friends who changed each other, for example.

P.S. About Hamlet. His intelligence is still highly debatable. One could compare him to Einstein in certain ways, or perhaps Dr. Frankenstein, so involved in plots and conspiracies that he lost track of the ‘stupid’ simplicity of simply offing Claudius. There are countless nuances about Hamlet that make that play one of Shakespeare’s most intriguing works…But, I’ll save all those stored-away rants for another time.

[Voralphion]

Very good topic, a few things though,

Denethor can still be compared to Saruman, who was, though a Maia, fully corrupted by Sauron’s will.

Denethor wasn't corrupted by Sauron's will as Saruman was. Denethor's madness was partly due to the general strain of using the stone, and partly due to dispair. Sauron was not able to break Denethor's mind, but was able to control what he saw. Sauron showed him his vast armies and this caused Denethor to lose hope and sink into depression. This along with the loss of Boromir caused him to go mad. Saruman on the other hand wasn't strong enough to resist Sauron and so had his mind overthrown. I believe this is mentioned in the Unfinished Tales section on the palantiri but without my book at the moment I am unable to provide direct quotes.

[Kuruharan]

He didn’t want Faramir to play ‘second fiddle’ as you so aptly put it; he wanted Faramir to be like Boromir.

Quite right. I’m afraid I followed my usual habit of throwing out statements that I don’t bother to explain fully. I intended that statement to encompass the time while Denethor was still alive. So long as Denethor remained Steward, Faramir was to remain a subordinate to his father (thus, second fiddle). Of course, as Denethor saw it was for Faramir to submit himself to Gandalf. Denethor probably thought of Faramir submitting himself to his father as gaining independence or true manliness, or something.

Since Faramir became the heir, he needed to develop his capacity for independent thought and action. However, Denethor was not necessarily going to approve of this independence when it manifested itself. As you say, Denethor wanted Faramir to be like Boromir, or at least as Denethor perceived Boromir. Gandalf had a few words to say on that matter that seemed to indicate that Denethor did not understand Boromir as well as he thought he did.

Perhaps he would be the person Denethor thought he should be if he was tempted by the One Ring.

I find that a interesting statement. Faramir needed to be flawed in order for him to be the man Denethor wanted him to be.

There is probably a lot of philosophical discourse that could flow from that idea.

I think that another failing of PJ is doing such a thing to Faramir.

And all the people said, “Amen!”

(One of these days I may get off that hobby horse).

I would have to ask how much attention Denethor paid to Faramir in the days before Boromir went off into the Blue?

My first impression was that Faramir had perhaps been rather neglected growing up. However, my first impressions usually utterly fail to withstand further thought. This is particularly in light of your statement about Denethor being over-protective of his children.

Ponder on this, I will.