LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 04 - A Journey in the Dark

[davem]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I would guess that there would be a trace of them if they were "real." Even if they were demonic spirits, in a physical wolvish body, there would be some sort of trace of them. A body, tracks, but there wasn't and Gandalf did say that those weren't your ordinary wolves. Atleast, we can agree that they weren't ordinary
wolves looking for meat, they were most likely from Sauron.

I'm more & more struck by the similarity between these 'wolves' & the Morgul Blade - both are physically present in the world, both are capable of doing physical harm, yet both disappear without leaving any evidence of their existence once their work is accomplished.

As to their being maiar, well, one would have to say 'How are the mighty fallen!'. But Tolkien was never really clear whether there were any other 'spiritual/supernatural' beings in ME who weren't Maiar, so its arguable that that's what they were. But, unfortunately, without a ME equivalent of Dionysius the Areopagite all we have is speculation. I will still stick to my original feeling taht Tolkien is making use of folkloric & mythic traditions in this case, even when he hadn't found a way to fit them all into a 'theology' of Middle earth. There's actually no reason to believe that the 'wargs' were actually alive in any sense, any more than the Silent Watchers were - & I don't think they were maiar - unless we call every apparently conscious supernatural being a 'maiar', which I think will cause more problems than it solves.

On the 'deaths' of the three main characters, I have to agree, though - passage into the Underworld, the realm of the Ancestors, was always symbolic of a death/re-birth journey - long before Christ's Harrowing of Hell. We can see Gandalf facing his own 'Shadow', dying & being re-born 'purified' - he is literally 'born-again' (initiates of the ancient mystery religions wre often referred to as 'twice-born'). Aragorn also in a sense confronts his own 'Shadow', in that he takes over the role of Isildur, & 'kills' the part of himself which corresponds to his ancestor - desire for power, to rule according to his own will, refusal to submit to anyone.

Its also odd that Frodo confronts Shelob in a tunnel - because Hobbits live in tunnels. Is there something symbolic about Shelob - does she symbolise the cloying, suffocating nature of Frodo's life in the Shire, & does that life also 'die', & get left behind - is this the point at which Frodo realises that 'there is no real going back'? Bilbo entered a tunnel & found a dragon waiting; Frodo finds a spider. Terrible powers of life & death dwell in the deep places of the world, & once one enters that realm there really can be no going back.

(Just fumbling with these ideas - they need more thought).