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Old 09-16-2004, 05:51 AM   #1
Eomer of the Rohirrim
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The other guardians of the Three? That is Elrond and Gandalf, and Gandalf was just mentioned a couple of lines back. That strikes me as a strange line and not wholly convincing.
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Old 09-16-2004, 01:06 PM   #2
Boromir88
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If you look at one of the lines, I think it's just saying that The three elven-ring bearers thought about claiming the ring for themself and overthrowing Sauron. Here is what I mean.

Quote:
In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.
Ok after the bit about Galadriel, I take it as the "if so" meaning if she "conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord," then the "if so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond." I take it as if she thought of wielding the ring to overthrow Sauron, so did the others, especially Elrond, I don't see how that would say Elrond is more powerful. I think it's just saying Elrond, especially thought about wielding the ring and supplanting Sauron, which makes sense, I mean fighting in the Siege of Barad-dur and having Gil-Galad die and all. But that's just how I interpret it, please tell me where you think it suggests Elrond is more powerful, because I interpret it much differently. I enjoy these debates, nothing like a friendly debate between two Tolkien fans.
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Old 09-16-2004, 02:21 PM   #3
Legolas
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The quote is taken completely out of context...the next line(s) of the letter should be included. Remember it says "IF" Galadriel could, Elrond could too, but that is not the case.

Here's that next line...

Quote:
But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.
It says Galadriel thought she could, but that was because of one of the Ring's key powers - deception. Galadriel was deceived into thinking that she could use the Ring for herself.

Please read the rest of the paragraph (and those immediately following it. Letter No. 246:

Quote:
Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.
Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).

[The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: 'Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.']
(The "Of the others" at the beginning means other than Frodo and Aragorn. The previous paragraph explains how Frodo would've lost quickly and the reasons why Aragorn was able to defeat Sauron in the palantir incident.)

It is also important to note that this line is explaining a hypothetical situation that may not even have been possible. The 'in any case' is like saying 'in the unlikely (or impossible) event that Elrond or Galadriel did obtain the Ring and *keep* it from Sauron':

Quote:
In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force.
There's a conversation similar to this in the old thread Control over the One Ring
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Last edited by Legolas; 09-16-2004 at 02:24 PM.
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