A fourth union of Elves and Men??

[Lachwen]

Now my arguments are going to sound kinda puny after Man-of-the-Wold's...

I am still firmly of the opinion that the union of Dior and Nimloth should count. As Man-of-the-Wold pointed out, Nimloth was one of the Eldar (technically, one of the Úmanyar). However, the argument put forth that Dior was not of the Edain because of his mother I find to be...well, for lack of a better term, wrong. After all, Tolkien was using a more medieval-European take on inheritences; in medieval Europe, inheritence of anything (name, land, title, etc.) was thought to come down only through the father's line. This can be seen in Tolkien's writings, as well: after all, you don't hear anyone claiming that Fingolfin and Finarfin were only "half-Noldor" because their mother was a Vanya. They were considered fully Noldorin, because the mother's lineage was not counted. In this way, Dior would still be considered one of the Edain, because his father was one of the Edain. Of course, J.R.R's take on such an argument is pure conjecture, but I still think I'm right.

[mark12_30]

...And here I was of the impression that the "top three" were listed because only three Noldorin elves (all women) married mortals. Tut, tut, far too simplistic...

[Legolas]

Dior's case does not follow suit with Fingolfin's case. It is a different matter entirely. Fingolfin's mother was still an elf...the 'division' she belonged to was different, but elven divisions were only made based on who they followed, where they lived. Dior's parents are of different races, making him into a new or blended race. He is half-elven. He is not Edain; he is not Eldar. Half-elven is a race all its own. Tolkien said he was half-elven. You can't choose to dispute that with thoughts on how Tolkien might've classified him when he has already classified him.

If you do choose to base it on what he "inherited," then he would actually be of the Eldar because, as his name denotes, he is Thingol's heir - not Beren's. He inherited his mother's family's legacy. Still, he is half-elven.

[Voralphion]

Does this mean that the union of Aragorn and Arwen shouldn't count because Arwen was half elven, not eldar?

[Lachwen]

No, Arwen was full-Elven, because she was born an Elf.

Where did Tolkien say that Dior was half-Elven, Legolas?

[Legolas]

Arwen was not born an elf. Tolkien even says she's not an elf. She simply had the aging patterns of one until the time for her choice came. Letter No. 345:

Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.

Dior was half-elven:

their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line.

By the marriage of Earendil to Elwing daughter of Dior son of Beren the lines of the Pereldar (Peredil) were united.

Elwing is half-elven by way of her father who was half-elven as a product of Luthien and Beren.

Earendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven), the elder being Dior, son of Beren and Luthien Tinuviel daughter of King Elu Thingol.

And most completely, Dior himself says it:

Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father's, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Peredil (Half-elven), but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil.'

[Man-of-the-Wold]

In "The Problem of Ros" Dior is quoted as saying that 'I am the first of the Pereðil,' and in "The Shibboleth of Fëanor" we learn, 'Eärendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven), the elder being Dior,' although that might be technically in error if one recalls that Eluréd and Elurín were probably born before Eärendil; later it is noted, 'by the marriage of Eärendil to Elwing daughter of Dior son of Beren the lines of the Pereldar (Pereðil) were united' (The Peoples of Middle-Earth).

In the "The Wanderings of Húrin" (sometimes those that wander are lost), for the year 497 the term "Dior Halfelven" is given (The War of the Great Jewels). Elsewhere in the same volume are geneologies, in which one can assume that Christopher Tolkien, correctly indicates Beren to be the last ruler of the House of Béor, in part because Dior would not really be considered an Edain or Man. (It is also implied at times that the titular claim to Ladros lay with Túrin)

In The Lost Road and Other Writings we have Manwë declaring (something never revisited) that one drop of mortal blood gives that person the life of Man, even if presumably not a very short one.

In effect, the Half-Elven were originally more like mortal elves, even though Eärendil's "heart was rather with the kindred of Men and the people of his father." The term mortal elves essentially best describes Arwen and her breathren, after such time as Elrond would have gone into the West, unless and until they followed him (in at least relatively short order).

Ironically, though mortal, the Half-elven are evidently more fit to be rulers of Elves than of Men, if not High-King, in that Elrond does not succeed Gil-Galad. Only Arwen I believe is ever suggested to be formally recognized as a ruler ("Queen") of both elves and men, but she represented the ultimate reconcilement.

Galador and Gilmith (children of Mithrellas, and conceivably Eldarion and his sisters) could be listed as Pereðil, too, but pursuant to the settlement of issues at the end of the First Age, they might not only have had the life of Men, but also might have been counted more immediately among Men.

What seems true is that Pereðil's offspring are only Pereðil, if the other parent is also a Pereðil or an Elf. It is suggested that had Elrond married a mortal woman; he would have forfeited his choice and any that his children would have otherwise had. Similarly, the children or Elros, Galador, Gilmith, Eldarion and his sister were indisputably Men and Women.