Ooh la la, Lúthien... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalwendë · 09-15-2004, 01:40 PM

Ted Hughes? Hmm, a little bit Byronic, slightly threatening, and very masculine...how about Boromir?

I see Faramir more as a Seamus Heaney.

Who could Wiiliam Blake be cast as?

Bêthberry · 09-15-2004, 01:43 PM

William Blake = Bilbo, visionary and scamp, writing verse of a mythology unheard in his Shire

Mithalwen · 09-16-2004, 11:03 AM

Would I be pushing it to say Ted Hughes for Turin?
Frodo - hmm Wilfrid Owen ?
Aragorn mmm Maybe TS Eliot
If it weren't for his cruder side I would want e.e.cummings for Elrond
Margaret Attwood I have only read as a novelist (just started Oryx and Crake last night) ......

tar-ancalime · 09-16-2004, 05:42 PM

I'd like to suggest: Yeats=Aragorn

Though this suggestion may well be colored by my extreme fondness for both Yeats and Aragorn...

Wallace Stevens is definitely Saruman.

Man-of-the-Wold · 09-17-2004, 02:00 AM

As much as I [err...] enjoy reading about Lush's allusions and what not, I must take some exception to the points about Catholics. While conservatism and sexual naïveté reign supreme in the hierarchy of my chosen church, the positions against abortion and contraception reflect other origins. Also, what you have in the Christian church is the agonizing guilt handed down from the brilliant St. Augustine in reaction to the consequences of what may have been basic enough liaisons in his youth, or much great licentiousness. Still, biblically speaking, sex between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman is not really a sin.

Clearly, however, it is fair to say that JRRT was discrete about sexual matters, and completely uninterested in addressing them in his work in any obvious way. This I would ascribe not so much to his catholicism, nothwithstanding being raised in the household of a priest, but rather to Victorian mores, and being a good ole' fashioned guy.

Something that surprisingly I did not find in scanning this long thread is that the story of Lúthien and Beren is a fundamental tale of his, which by some accounts was conceived in his childhood. More compelling is to consider that on his and his wife's tombstones is inscribed the words Lúthien and Beren by his request. Letters underscore how much she was his Tinuviel.

In his youth, because of the difference in their ages, JRRT and his future wife could not see each other for several years, by his agreement with his priest guardian, until he was of a certain age. (Sounds a bit like Aragorn, Arwen and Elrond) As for the story of Beren & Lúthien, I think what one is really sensing there is the actual tension that existed with his passion for his wife.

In both cases, though, I see no reason to assume anything but true chastity before betrothal/marriage as mutually and ritually blessed by both families. Lúthien's "slipping" from Beren arms means just that, in that they had been embracing -- ie, just hugging & kissing, amorous maybe, but only first base. Sorry.

If they had already "coupled" then there would have been little point in going before Thingol for his "blessing."

Victorianism and chivalry aside, JRRT was really aspiring for a pre-Fall model of love. Where sexual relations were good and timeless, and death after a long Númenórean-like life is also only another stage in the journey to Eru. Beren, Faramir and Aragorn, as well as Elves in general, are not perfect and contain something of the Marring of Arda by Morgoth, but they are not supposed to be as fallen as you, me and most of the race of Men in Middle-Earth. It's just different.

With some of the oblique references to evil and torment one might assume something of Sodom and Gormorrah. But JRRT leaves that to the imagination.

With Beren and Lúthien, I don't think he means to do that at all, except to affirm them as a noble model of what true love can and will endure. With all of the swordplay, towers and entering into caves and hobbit holes, one would never be able to stop with the innuendos and possibilities.

As for Maeglin, he is the one of the few clear example of a corrupted elf that we meet in person, where incestous lust seems to be at work, although he is just as much lusting after the throne, and indeed, Celegorm is really more greedy for power than for ....

Lush · 09-18-2004, 03:59 PM

This thread was a message to various members of this forum that liked to jump to conclusions regarding Tolkien's treatment of romantic love in his works.

It wasn't meant as a commentary on Catholicism, but as a commentary on the way in which certain people assign their own values to fictional characters, based on a nebulous notion of "But Tolkien was a Catholic!"

But so what?

That's what I was trying to say at the time, however clumsily.

HerenIstarion · 09-18-2004, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lush

But so what?

May I invite you to take a look at this thread?

PS
The thread name made me do it, it was not me, I'm innocent, I was set up... Ooh la la, that invitation surely qualifies for that

09-15-2004, 01:43 PM	#2
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	William Blake = Bilbo, visionary and scamp, writing verse of a mythology unheard in his Shire __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

09-16-2004, 11:03 AM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	Would I be pushing it to say Ted Hughes for Turin? Frodo - hmm Wilfrid Owen ? Aragorn mmm Maybe TS Eliot If it weren't for his cruder side I would want e.e.cummings for Elrond Margaret Attwood I have only read as a novelist (just started Oryx and Crake last night) ...... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-16-2004, 05:42 PM	#4
tar-ancalime Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: abaft the beam Posts: 303	I'd like to suggest: Yeats=Aragorn Though this suggestion may well be colored by my extreme fondness for both Yeats and Aragorn... Wallace Stevens is definitely Saruman. __________________ Having fun wolfing it to the bitter end, I see, gaur-ancalime (lmp, ww13)

09-17-2004, 02:00 AM	#5
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	Now Settle Down As much as I [err...] enjoy reading about Lush's allusions and what not, I must take some exception to the points about Catholics. While conservatism and sexual naïveté reign supreme in the hierarchy of my chosen church, the positions against abortion and contraception reflect other origins. Also, what you have in the Christian church is the agonizing guilt handed down from the brilliant St. Augustine in reaction to the consequences of what may have been basic enough liaisons in his youth, or much great licentiousness. Still, biblically speaking, sex between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman is not really a sin. Clearly, however, it is fair to say that JRRT was discrete about sexual matters, and completely uninterested in addressing them in his work in any obvious way. This I would ascribe not so much to his catholicism, nothwithstanding being raised in the household of a priest, but rather to Victorian mores, and being a good ole' fashioned guy. Something that surprisingly I did not find in scanning this long thread is that the story of Lúthien and Beren is a fundamental tale of his, which by some accounts was conceived in his childhood. More compelling is to consider that on his and his wife's tombstones is inscribed the words Lúthien and Beren by his request. Letters underscore how much she was his Tinuviel. In his youth, because of the difference in their ages, JRRT and his future wife could not see each other for several years, by his agreement with his priest guardian, until he was of a certain age. (Sounds a bit like Aragorn, Arwen and Elrond) As for the story of Beren & Lúthien, I think what one is really sensing there is the actual tension that existed with his passion for his wife. In both cases, though, I see no reason to assume anything but true chastity before betrothal/marriage as mutually and ritually blessed by both families. Lúthien's "slipping" from Beren arms means just that, in that they had been embracing -- ie, just hugging & kissing, amorous maybe, but only first base. Sorry. If they had already "coupled" then there would have been little point in going before Thingol for his "blessing." Victorianism and chivalry aside, JRRT was really aspiring for a pre-Fall model of love. Where sexual relations were good and timeless, and death after a long Númenórean-like life is also only another stage in the journey to Eru. Beren, Faramir and Aragorn, as well as Elves in general, are not perfect and contain something of the Marring of Arda by Morgoth, but they are not supposed to be as fallen as you, me and most of the race of Men in Middle-Earth. It's just different. With some of the oblique references to evil and torment one might assume something of Sodom and Gormorrah. But JRRT leaves that to the imagination. With Beren and Lúthien, I don't think he means to do that at all, except to affirm them as a noble model of what true love can and will endure. With all of the swordplay, towers and entering into caves and hobbit holes, one would never be able to stop with the innuendos and possibilities. As for Maeglin, he is the one of the few clear example of a corrupted elf that we meet in person, where incestous lust seems to be at work, although he is just as much lusting after the throne, and indeed, Celegorm is really more greedy for power than for .... __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.

09-18-2004, 03:59 PM	#6
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	This thread was a message to various members of this forum that liked to jump to conclusions regarding Tolkien's treatment of romantic love in his works. It wasn't meant as a commentary on Catholicism, but as a commentary on the way in which certain people assign their own values to fictional characters, based on a nebulous notion of "But Tolkien was a Catholic!" But so what? That's what I was trying to say at the time, however clumsily. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

09-15-2004, 01:40 PM	#1
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Ted Hughes? Hmm, a little bit Byronic, slightly threatening, and very masculine...how about Boromir? I see Faramir more as a Seamus Heaney. Who could Wiiliam Blake be cast as?

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