Robots and Aliens vs. Elves and Orcs - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

InklingElf · 09-12-2004, 02:06 AM

And thank you for citing Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Lachwen

Regin I'm not sure I totally agree with this movement. These generes (Fantasy and Sci-Fi) are leagues of their own. I don't think it's fair to compare and undermine either, in this case that of science fiction.

I too love to read both generes but I don't think the lack of escapism is the problem as it has been pointed out in the last post.

Lalwendë · 09-12-2004, 08:52 AM

I don't claim to be an expert on sci-fi, but that article was interesting. Firstly, I think it's a mistake to say that Tolkien clearly delineates between good and evil; there are a lot of grey areas in Middle Earth lore, Gollum being an excellent example. He's one of my favourite characters in literature as it's impossible to say if he is truly bad. Even Gandalf warns against thinking in terms of black and white too much.

But, I was also interested to read that the quality of sci-fi is declining - I think it's changing in nature. There is some pretty good dystopian work, such as the film 28 Days Later, the virus in this is supposed to be based upon road rage. And surely, terrorism is nothing new, and if we have evil governments then wouldn't people want to express their distrust/disgust more?

The author of the article says that mainstream writers are using sci-fi more, citing Margaret Atwood - but she has already used sci-fi themes years ago in The Handmaid's Tale.

radagastly · 09-12-2004, 01:47 PM

I've always thought that the inordinate popularity of the Science Fiction in the seventies was a direct result of the popularity of "The Lord of the Rings" in the sixties. The pendulum has currently swung back the other way, in large part due to Peter Jackson and the Harry Potter books. There will, no doubt, be a resurgence in the popularity of Science Fiction as some people tire of dragons and elves in favor of the real creatures they see around them, whether those creatures are terrorists or stem-cell researchers or Martian microbes from Antarctica.

But Tolkien will still be there. One of the main reasons for his popularity is that he speaks to the arc of the human experience in a difficult world. Science Fiction tends to speak to social issues. Since social issues tend to change, Science Fiction must evolve with them. Fantasy at its best has no such constraints. It can embrace such temporal things, but it need not do so.

Lachwen · 09-12-2004, 03:40 PM

Science fiction doesn't necessarily speak to social issues, Radagastly. Books such as Niven's Footfall (can you tell he's one of my favorite authors?

) and Spielberg's Close Encounters of the Third Kind are delightfully devoid of serious social commentary (in fact, Footfall is about killer elephants from outer space

). I am not, of course, claiming that all sci-fi is free of politics; Fallen Angels is very political (and also quite good).

InklingElf - glad to be of service.

radagastly · 09-12-2004, 04:03 PM

Lachwen--That's true, though when science fiction attempts serious content beyond mere entertainment, it is more likely to take the form of social commentary than fantasy fiction is. Fantasy tends to center around magic and mythology (as Tolkien does, though with surprisingly less magic than one would expect) and as such tends to deal more with personal or human issues since these things are partly the source of mythology. Certainly not as a strict rule, but as a general rule of thumb, it lends itself more to these kinds of themes just as science fiction lends itself to more political and social themes. That is all I meant really.

Feanor of the Peredhil · 09-12-2004, 06:13 PM

Quote:

"Terrorism is happening, there are evil governments," says Sawyer. "People are looking for a simplicity in their fictional worlds where good and evil are clearly delineated, that you can't find in the real world, and that provides an enormous comfort -- and that, I think, has an awful lot to do with the reason fantasy is so popular."

As much as other people may disagree with the above statement, I must admit that it rings true in my case. As I pointed out the other day to my English teacher, there is nothing wrong with escapism (he's anti-Tolkien, preferring realism, such as found in works by Steinbeck or Hemmingway), and my life currently needs that outlet.

In literature, there are 'good guys' and there are 'bad guys'. The good guys fight for a noble cause, while the bad guys are... for lack of better word: bad. The struggle against each other, and usually, the good guys win. Occasionally they don't, however there is always a visable difference between both sides of the spectrum. Grey areas, indeed, are present, but there is always a clear "right" involved.

In life, it is not so simple. Good people sometimes do bad things. There may or may not be people who are truly "bad", simply misguided, troubled, confused, etc. Simple choices can turn a 'good' person 'bad' at the drop of a hat, whether they know it or not. In life, outside factors much affect a person's state of mind and decision making capabilities. Nobody is inherently evil (I still can't find that blasted thread to link to), and so you cannot simply say "I am good, and my enemy must therefore be evil."

Because of this lack of distinction between what is right and wrong, it makes a nice escape from a very confusing life to be able to dive into a book where decisions are made and good triumphs over evil. When you cannot fight your own enemies (literal, or figurative), it is a comfort to read about 'bad guys' getting pounded. For example: it is very nice right now to read Shatterglass by Tamora Pierce, and see the bad guys brought to justice by good people who work hard to stay that way. And Fea laughs quietly to herself, for managing, once again, to stay on topic AND promote Pierce's work.

Fea

Encaitare · 09-12-2004, 07:44 PM

I like reading both science fiction and fantasy, although I prefer the latter. I do agree to some extent to what Sawyer wrote, but why can't this apply to science fiction as well? There are defined good and evil characters in sci-fi too. I will admit that fantasy is more of an escape for me, since I prefer dragons and swordfights to spaceships and laser guns, but that's just my stance.

Quote:

That's true, though when science fiction attempts serious content beyond mere entertainment, it is more likely to take the form of social commentary than fantasy fiction is. --radagastly

Very true! I'm reading "Dune" right now, and it's great, but it's so political. However, this doesn't keep it from being "escapist." To me, any good read is a form of escape.

09-12-2004, 01:47 PM	#3
radagastly Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Washington, D. C., USA Posts: 299	I've always thought that the inordinate popularity of the Science Fiction in the seventies was a direct result of the popularity of "The Lord of the Rings" in the sixties. The pendulum has currently swung back the other way, in large part due to Peter Jackson and the Harry Potter books. There will, no doubt, be a resurgence in the popularity of Science Fiction as some people tire of dragons and elves in favor of the real creatures they see around them, whether those creatures are terrorists or stem-cell researchers or Martian microbes from Antarctica. But Tolkien will still be there. One of the main reasons for his popularity is that he speaks to the arc of the human experience in a difficult world. Science Fiction tends to speak to social issues. Since social issues tend to change, Science Fiction must evolve with them. Fantasy at its best has no such constraints. It can embrace such temporal things, but it need not do so. __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.

09-12-2004, 03:40 PM	#4
Lachwen Wight Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Greenwood the Great. Posts: 115	Science fiction doesn't necessarily speak to social issues, Radagastly. Books such as Niven's Footfall (can you tell he's one of my favorite authors? ) and Spielberg's Close Encounters of the Third Kind are delightfully devoid of serious social commentary (in fact, Footfall is about killer elephants from outer space ). I am not, of course, claiming that all sci-fi is free of politics; Fallen Angels is very political (and also quite good). InklingElf - glad to be of service. __________________ "'...Home is the sailor, home from the sea, And the hunter home from the hill.'"

09-12-2004, 04:03 PM	#5
radagastly Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Washington, D. C., USA Posts: 299	Lachwen--That's true, though when science fiction attempts serious content beyond mere entertainment, it is more likely to take the form of social commentary than fantasy fiction is. Fantasy tends to center around magic and mythology (as Tolkien does, though with surprisingly less magic than one would expect) and as such tends to deal more with personal or human issues since these things are partly the source of mythology. Certainly not as a strict rule, but as a general rule of thumb, it lends itself more to these kinds of themes just as science fiction lends itself to more political and social themes. That is all I meant really. __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before, I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.

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09-12-2004, 02:06 AM	#1
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	And thank you for citing Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Lachwen Regin I'm not sure I totally agree with this movement. These generes (Fantasy and Sci-Fi) are leagues of their own. I don't think it's fair to compare and undermine either, in this case that of science fiction. I too love to read both generes but I don't think the lack of escapism is the problem as it has been pointed out in the last post.

09-12-2004, 08:52 AM	#2
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	I don't claim to be an expert on sci-fi, but that article was interesting. Firstly, I think it's a mistake to say that Tolkien clearly delineates between good and evil; there are a lot of grey areas in Middle Earth lore, Gollum being an excellent example. He's one of my favourite characters in literature as it's impossible to say if he is truly bad. Even Gandalf warns against thinking in terms of black and white too much. But, I was also interested to read that the quality of sci-fi is declining - I think it's changing in nature. There is some pretty good dystopian work, such as the film 28 Days Later, the virus in this is supposed to be based upon road rage. And surely, terrorism is nothing new, and if we have evil governments then wouldn't people want to express their distrust/disgust more? The author of the article says that mainstream writers are using sci-fi more, citing Margaret Atwood - but she has already used sci-fi themes years ago in The Handmaid's Tale.