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#1 | ||
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 11
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I would also like to point something out in this chapter.
Quote:
Another part I really like about this chapter was when they were with no horse, and Strider asked the hobbits how much they could carry. Quote:
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|+|+++++++++++++++++++++++++++|+| If the whole world is against me, then I too, am against the world. |+|+++++++++++++++++++++++++++|+| |
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#2 | ||
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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This chapter, in addition to being wonderfully suspenseful and – for my money – the “real” beginning of the Quest, explores an important idea in LotR: knowledge and awareness. More specifically, this whole chapter is organised, in a way, around the question of who knows or is aware of what.
At the ‘higher end’ of this spectrum, we have Elrond who, as Aragorn tells us, is the only living being (in Middle Earth) who knows the full tale of the Lay of Luthien. Aragorn, however, knows at the very least a good chunk of it himself; what is more, he knows that he is part of that story – more specifically that his life is going to provide the end of the story. In effect, he knows that “the end is not known” and thus that it is up to him to give that tale an ending: be it good or bad. Aragorn and Elrond are related to one another in this way: Elrond knows the tale, but as an outsider – it’s not his story. Aragorn knows that the story is not just about him, but the story of his life and existence. He doesn’t just know or see history (the Tale), he is aware of his place in it. The other fragment of lore we have is Sam’s song of Gil-Galad. Interestingly, when he finishes it he says: Quote:
Pippin demonstrates another response, distinct from Aragorn (who knows too much?) and Sam (who knows more than he wants to?). When Pippin cries out that he hopes they won’t have to go to Mordor, he shows off his innocence and his naďveté – he doesn’t want to know about the darkness, thank you very much. This brings me to Frodo, who I think is moving from a Pippin state (innocence), into an Aragorn state (experience), via a Sam state (intuition): Quote:
Which brings me to Merry who, as we’ve already been saying, has a lot to do with the Nazgűl. Throughout this chapter Merry is once more taking care of practical matters. He is the one who asks Aragorn about the meaning of the sign left by Gandalf; he's the one who comments on the lack of shelter food and water at Weathertop; he's the one who asks Aragorn how far to Rivendell. In this sense, he if very much, I think, the practical/pragmatic version of Frodo. He's also looking at the Road, but in terms of how they are going to traverse it. So there are some interesting patterns between the characters here, I think. On the one hand are Frodo and Merry, the hobbits who are looking to the Road (the present?). On the other are Sam and Pippin, who are looking, or not looking, toward the end of the Road: Mordor (the future?). Aragorn seems to have the only ‘all around’ view – he is aware of the past, aware of the dangers in the present, and aware of his potential future, both good and bad. If any of this holds water, isn’t it fitting that this chapter takes place upon a hill with a long and panoramic view of Middle-Earth? (I second davem on the power of this moment: I still catch my breath at the description of the lands about the hill – it really is the first moment at which Middle-Earth fully comes alive in the book).
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Scribbling scrabbling. |
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#3 | |
Relic of Wandering Days
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
Posts: 1,480
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Quote:
EDIT: Rereading this post, the way the ruin is discribed as being like a rough crown, is a bit like Aragorn himself, untidy and yet significant. Last edited by Hilde Bracegirdle; 09-03-2004 at 03:57 AM. |
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#4 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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Poems, one of them
Both poems create sense of depth, of something beyond and beneath the actual storyline the reader is engaged in. The 'realness' of the world is achieved by means of inclusion of such 'legendary' poetry.
I won't comment upon Beren and Luthien, the poem literally sends shivers down my spine, but I'm willing to expend our conversation to Gil-Galad poem a bit: Quote:
Besides, though it is not hobbit verse proper, it is too, like all other hobbit-songs, quite ambivalent in its meaning, running deeper than first glance may reveal. Especially the last line: in Mordor where the shadows are may be read in two ways. Firstly, we know that Mordor is indeed the land where the smokes and clouds cover the sky, so there are shadows in there. The verse simply describes the landscape, as it is at the certain place on the map of ME. But, remembering [in?]famous 'Canonicity' and Evil Things threads, this is another instant were Tolkien balances on the verge between two concepts of Evil - is it of independent being, does it exist? Or is it inexistent, parasite on the body of Good? This single line is worth a whole book on philosophy, I can't help admiring Tolkien's art. The Shadows, in themselves non-existent thing, caused by lack of light, absence, not presence, Are. So, Mordor is the place where non-existent things exist, the personification of Evil, the place were Evil has physical expression into the world. cheers
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#5 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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I deeply love both these poems. For those geared towards singing:
Beren And Luthien Grimmer quality, but the tune is discernable: Gilgalad
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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#6 | |||
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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A few days ago Aiwendil said this:
Quote:
These historical references not only give the reader the illusion of depth, but, when taken together, perhaps mirror one of Tolkien's essential themes: the failures of the past weighing down on the heads of Men, and the limitations and challenges posed by that string of failures. To put it bluntly, either the free peoples of Middle-earth overcome the failings of those who went before them or they fall into unending darkness, and there is no turning of the page to the Fourth Age. I am not saying this is allegory (heaven forbid!) but it does sound strangely compelling when set against the history of the twentieth century, which had a similar lesson for us. The first two chapters say it all. We are presented with the Hobbits, a stubborn and insular, albeit a delightful people, who can not or will not remember or recall their past. In both UT and LotR, Tolkien indicates the Hobbits have little recollection even of their own history and have forgotten many things they used to know. In complete juxtaposition to this, Tolkien entitles the very next chapter "Shadows of the Past" to show the intrusion of the Ring. These two contrasting images can not be accidental. In succeeding chapters, we begin to get a glimpse of further intrusions of the past upon the present. This takes a variety of forms, some known to the reader and others only hinted at. The first is the Hobbits' meeting with Gildor. As an Elf, Gildor is the mirror image of the Hobbits in one important respect: Elves spend much of their energy dwelling on the past and trying to reconstruct it. The true identity of the Ringwraiths hearkens back to ancient things as well as Bomabadil's poignant description of the Rangers : Quote:
But it's only in this particular chapter that the historical theme begins to take center stage. There are three or four incidents in this chapter that underline the fact that past and present are becoming mixed. The Hobbits are not only travelling geographically: they are becoming entangled with disputes and problems that are very, very old. And just as Tolkien is careful to describe the geography of Middle-earth to help us visualize what type of land the Hobbits are travelling through, he is also careful to lay out the historical setting. First, there are the physical remains that the Hobbits see as they approach Weathertop: Quote:
It is Aragorn who is the linchpin in all of this. Once Tolkien got rid of Trotter and substituted Aragorn, he discovered that his storyline was not only moving forward in terms of miles, but moving backwards in terms of themes and antecedents. In chapters to come, Aragorn will take us to Rivendell -- the seat of ancient lore -- and finally to Lothlorien, where we will actually go outside time. The "knife in the dark" that comes hurtling at Frodo is quite literally out of the past. And the cry that he issues -- O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! --is also a glimmering from the past: most contemporary free peoples of Middle-earth, with the exception of Elves, were blithely unaware of Varda's existence, since the Valar now had little to do with Arda. It is this sense of the past intruding on the present that intrgues me in this chapter, and many others to come.
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 09-01-2004 at 02:21 PM. |
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#7 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Quote:
I can't help wondering whether Tolkien's decision to choose the Ring as the focus for 'The New Hobbit' determined ultimately what the story would become, & why he could say 'it wrote itself'. Once the ring becomes the motivating force of the story, the world of the story is shaped around it, & its destruction inevitably means the end of that world. This gives the lie (if that were still necessary) to the idea that LotR is simply good guys vs bad guys. The Ring is Middle earth, Middle earth is the Ring, & the end of one is inevitably the end of the other. I don't know whether in the end we can call Tolkien an optimist or a pessimist - optimist certainly, in that by bringing the old world of the 'eternal return' (whoa! back to the Nazis!!!) to an end, but also a pessimist in that he seems to believe that only by rejecting the 'wonder' & high magic can we be liberated. He gives us Middle earth only to take it away, & like the elves we are left only with memory (which is not what the heart desires, as someone once said). |
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