LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 10 - Strider

[Mark]

Originally Posted by davem

That's as may be, but all that book-learnin' can't be good for a body, an' I don't see that no good ever come of it. I don't see what cause respectable Shire-folk would have to go chasin black men through the streets at night when they should be tucked up at home in bed, like civilised folk.

Who said hobbits were civilized?
Hobbits are nothing near civilized, the whole race is considered strange. You could never estimate what they would do. Thats for the general population, now, for the 4 hobbits. Well, lets look at it this way:

Frodo: Inherited the ring from Biblo, which Bilbo stole from Gollum. Biblo was beginning to become crazy, the ring had taken a hold on him and he broke that hold, for good or for bad. Frodo, the peaceful Frodo that is only a youth in hobbittown times, inherits the ring that rules them all. Frodo can feel power at his hands, the whole timeframe of middle earth depends on this one ring, this small golden thing hung around his neck.... and he was sent to distroy it. At this time in the book, we can expect that Frodo might take the ring for himself, afterall, he is just a kid. Frodo, sent on an emmence task with his faithful servant only to learn that he was stuck to go with 2 more. We could go on with Frodo, but to finish his part, lets just say.... he's not what hobbits call "sane".

Sam: Sam the friendly gardener, Sam, the one who spied on his best friend, his buddy. Sam, that little boy, the small and weak one, listening and mendling with the affairs of wizards. Sam, the crazy one, actually wanting to go to mount doom. Sam too, does not fit the discription of a normal hobbit.

Pippin & Merry: Pippin, oh Pippin. Not much is said about Pippin i'm afraid, but we can tell that he has a good sense of humor, along with his best friend Merry. The two convinced Sam to turn "against" Frodo, to spy and collect as much information.
Pippin and Merry, the two stubborn friends that stick to Frodo like melted cheese (Yum!). We can tell that Merry had not alot of fear, having the courage to stand up to the wraiths. Pippin, having the courage to walk fearless into the Great Forest, along with Merry, and the others. From what we know, hobbits like to stick to the places they live in. These two, also do not fit the discription.

As we can see, this group of hobbits are nothing near "civilized", so, we cannot expect them to act as such. Each one of these hobbits has there own advantages and disadvantages, and we know that Merry went out for the "walk" on other buisness. He was trying to get something, something to help the 4 hobbits, we can tell that they were not in any good situation, Merry attempted to take them off gaurd, or get any kind of clue. Perhaps he was looking to find a weakness, something that could end the shrieks and the shivers.

[Lalwendë]

Hello and welcome Mark - interesting thoughts you've posted!

I wouldn't say hobbits were uncivilised, but this could start a whole new topic (I have a vague theory about hobbits) so I'll leave it there. But, Bilbo, Frodo, Merry, Pippin and Sam are by no means 'ordinary' hobbits.

Why did Merry go out to 'take the air'? I like to think it was simple curiosity, that he was a very nosy hobbit. I would suspect that hobbits are a nosy race in general, living in villages close to one another, and coupled with the alleged daring spirit that comes with having Brandybuck blood, Merry's behaviour does not surprise me.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Interesting thoughts on Merry, and I'm enjoying davem's humorous hobbitish take on the issue! I looked back at the last chapter, where he decides not to join them in the common room, to see if there's a clue to his reason. I read:

Merry said it would be too stuffy.

Now that sounds just like a reason I'd have for going out to walk instead of joining a bunch of strangers in a smoky barroom! He must have been used to a life in the fresh air and just might have needed some oxygen. He didn't necessarily intend to go outside at first, saying:

I shall sit here quietly by the fire for a bit, and perhaps go out later for a sniff of the air.

As a matter of fact, when he came back he said that he'd stayed indoors for an hour, going out only after realizing that his friends were't coming back to the room soon. That sounds more like a contemplative personality, needing a little time to himself after being surrounded by his (talkative?) friends all day. Someone who can think and plan as he has shown himself able to needs time to settle and organise his thoughts.

What does make me pause to think is when he says that he was "drawn" to follow the Wraith. We've only heard of the terror they inspire - what could have drawn him to them? The terror came later.

[mark12_30]

Wasn't Frodo also drawn to them despite his terror? And also, tempted to put on the Ring. I get the impression that their powers of suggestion/ temptation were significant.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Yes, but I thought Frodo was drawn by the Ring. Merry didn't have that object to channel any attraction.

[mark12_30]

Well, I always thought so too, but now I'm having some second thoughts. Maybe what Frodo experienced was partially, or mostly, the Ring's effect.

Perhaps as we read, we can keep an eye out for non-Ring-bearer types being drawn to evil, and any evidence of Frodo's being drawn by something other than the Ring.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Esty

Interesting thoughts on Merry, and I'm enjoying davem's humorous hobbitish take on the issue!

What can I say - I am in fact a hobbit (how many other pipe smokers do we have on the Downs?)

It is quite strange that the Nazgul have both the power to repel & to attract those (supposedly) opposed to them. What exactly draws Merry to them? He is clearly a quiet, thoughtful type - I can't see Pippin getting involved without Merry's influence. I wonder how much of Tolkien there is in Merry - as I said earlier, he is the closest thing we have to a philologist - how many of us could imagine a hobbit writing a treatise on Old Words & Names in the Shire, & more to the point, how many hobbits would be interested in reading it? He seems drawn to the Nazgul (or the Ulairi - I love that word, one of my favourite of Tolkien's words!) almost from the first, & he also seems to have been destined to encounter the Rohirrim - an encounter with 'Anglo-Saxon' which insprired him to become a philologist in the way it inspired Tolkien. What does this say about Tolkien's concept of 'fate'?

So, why is Merry the 'forgotten' hobbit? The more attention we pay to him the more complex he becomes. He seems to be on a quest of his own, one he seeks out - I can't help wondering whether if Frodo hadn't given him the excuse to go off travelling he wouldn't have found some other reason to go off exploring the wide world. Maybe it wasn't just Frodo & Sam who were inspired by Mr Bilbo's tales of high adventure.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The more attention we pay to him the more complex he becomes.

Agreed, davem! This chapter-by-chapter discussion has gotten me thinking more deeply about Merry for the first time! I'm beginning to admire his qualities and am looking forward to finding out more about him in the coming discussions.

Isn't the depth of various characters, not just the heroic few, what makes the book so rich?!

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Isn't the depth of various characters, not just the heroic few, what makes the book so rich?!

I agree with Estelyn on that one.

Originally Posted by davem

It is quite strange that the Nazgul have both the power to repel & to attract those (supposedly) opposed to them.

We forget the whole concept that the 9 aslo hold rings. Perhaps the rings they hold give them this kind of power? afterall, they are supposed to be the "9 Kings of mortal men" dont you think the rings they hold on to would give them the power to attract or repel any mortal? Its just my opinion

Originally Posted by davem

What exactly draws Merry to them? He is clearly a quiet, thoughtful type - I can't see Pippin getting involved without Merry's influence. I wonder how much of Tolkien there is in Merry

That proves again, Hobbits are not as we understand them to be, all hobbits are more complex than they seem

[HerenIstarion]

Just a minor point, concerning hobbits and civilization:

It seems that hobbits are indeed uncivilized - meaning they do not live in big cities, rather townships, and the main population is rustic. As civilization is based on stem civis, they must be uncivilized. That does not mean they are uncultured, ultimately based on the same root as 'cultivate', meaning they have worked out how to till , and hobbits are farmers.

Minor point over.

Not to stray overly off topic - the given chapter provides interesing fact: the safety of the Shire, the thing considered as built-in, given, 'as it must be' by the inhabitants themselves (and by yours truly after reading the Hobbit but before LoTR and this chapter in particular) is revealed to be no more than 'watchful peace', kept by same much rebuked and scorned at rangers as Aragorn/Strider is:

I have often kept watch on the borders of the Shire in the last few years, when he was busy elsewhere. He seldom left it unguarded

Implication is that in recent years Aragorn kept the watch, but there were others, and before recent years too, as we know that Gandalf grew fond of the Shire almost at its foundation time

cheers

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

Firing up an old thread, are we?

Originally Posted by davem

I wonder how much of Tolkien there is in Merry - as I said earlier, he is the closest thing we have to a philologist - how many of us could imagine a hobbit writing a treatise on Old Words & Names in the Shire, & more to the point, how many hobbits would be interested in reading it?

I think that given that "...hobbits delighted in (elaborate family trees with innumerable branches)..." (Prologue) indicates that this sort of thing might not be so far fetched for them. We have this image of hobbits as a sort of rustic, almost serf-like culture. I think that in truth they are much more sophisticated than that. Let's not let a single example of several "working-class" hobbits talking in a tavern (Chapter 1) influence our image of the entire culture.

Originally Posted by Mark

We forget the whole concept that the 9 aslo hold rings.

Not too fast, there. Don't forget that Sauron held the rings of the nine - not the nine.

[alatar]

In the first billion or so readings of this chapter I just glossed over the following, but subsequent readings/listenings (via audio CD) and the PJ movies made the part about Narsil stick out like the proverbial oliphaunt in the room. In this chapter Aragorn shows the hobbits the shards of Narsil which, obviously, he is carrying around with him. This begs the questions:

• Does Aragorn carry another sword with which he fights, or prior to the reforging of Anduril did he rush into battle, yelling, "Stubby! Stubby for Elendil!"

• Why did Aragorn need or desire to carry this heirloom, presumably useless but extremely valuable (saved at large cost when other heirlooms weren't), while walking the wdith and breadth of Wilderland? Was there some benefit that I'm not seeing, or didn't he trust leaving it behind with Elrond, who may have sent it to Gondor just the get the Dúnedain out of his house and away from Arwen ? Did Strider think that the broken sword would be recognized as verification of his identity? was he commanded or honor bound to do so?

• Did he have any weapon, save fire, at the Fords?

• Is not then PJ's version of event slightly more logical (did I just write that? ) ?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by alatar

• Is not then PJ's version of event slightly more logical (did I just write that? ) ?

You did, and may God have mercy on your soul....for you agree with me.

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by alatar

Does Aragorn carry another sword with which he fights, or prior to the reforging of Anduril did he rush into battle, yelling, "Stubby! Stubby for Elendil!"

Originally Posted by Evisse the Blue

Merry saying that he felt as if he drowned in deep water is one of the very few instances in the book which brings chills of terror down my spine. Deep water (especially deep muddy water) means death or the foreshadowing of death, take for instance --don't laugh now-- Anna Karenina's similar vision before she takes her own life.

Isn't it interesting that Merry in particular should feel like he was drowning in deep water? Hobbits are notorious for their dislike of swimming, and Merry was the only one of the four who had experience with water, except for Frodo's early and tragic encounter.

What would Pippin, or Sam, or Frodo have felt if they had gotten close to the Ringwraiths (ignoring for the moment the fact that they would have attacked Frodo and taken the Ring)? None of them would have known what it feels like to be caught in deep water. Would the instinctive hobbit fear of it have supplied the sensation anyway, or would they have felt something else that frightened them? And if the former, why did Merry feel like he was drowning-- does this indicate that the Brandybucks, despite their close proximity, have the same instinctive fear of water deep down?

[Selmo]

Originally Posted by alatar

Why did Aragorn need or desire to carry this heirloom, presumably useless but extremely valuable (saved at large cost when other heirlooms weren't), while walking the wdith and breadth of Wilderland?

Ordinary swords would not have been much use against the Nine. Maybe Aragorn felt that Narsil, as a symbol of Sauron's earlier defeat, would have a powerful effect on them, although, when it came to a fight, he decided that fire would be more useful.

I assume that he carried other weapons; there could be enemies more mortal than the Nazgul between Bree and Rivendell, who would not be awed by a broken sword.
.

[Encaitare]

Despite the fact that Frodo was a bit unusual, being a Baggins, I would not go so far to say that hobbits were uncivilized. They certainly did not consider themselves strange! Frodo was settling in to becoming quite a "normal" hobbit when all of a sudden he was called to go on his quest.

Sam does seem to be more of an exception to what makes a "normal" hobbit in that he loves tales of Elves and far-away places. And Merry and Pippin, being a Brandybuck and a Took, are rather adventurous.

Anyway, I think what davem meant was that the average Hobbiton resident would have looked down upon these particular individuals' tendency to have dealings/interests with the "outside world" and their adventures -- until, that is, they became heroes and saved their country.