The animals in ME - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

HerenIstarion · 08-09-2004, 02:34 PM

Encaitare · 08-09-2004, 06:11 PM

It seems to me that in most cases the only creatures which can really be held accountable for any evil acts they do are the ones who are "sentient," such as Shelob and Huan. The others seem to simply have been taken by the darkness and corrupted (ie: Mumakil, crebain).

I wasn't aware that cats were said to have come from Mordor! Very cool... well, they certainly are sneaky.

HerenIstarion · 08-10-2004, 01:15 AM

Quote:

they certainly are sneaky

They are, but the've got style to them

. Just as Annatar, before fixing finally on being Sauron

Mithalwen · 08-10-2004, 11:41 AM

I doubt that any cat would care about anyone's opinion of them ...... dogs think they are humans... cats think they are gods.... and they do have Baudelaire and Verlaine to fight their corner... of course cats do have that love of sitting on paper which is annoying for scholars.......

In the UK cats were regarded as both lucky and unlucky according to region .... the long association with witchcraft maybe...

Tolkien makes up for the eaten ponies in the Hobbit in LOTR .... Bill and Merry's ponies all survive ..... even Boromir's horse gets home.... but the talking animal stuff... hmmmm in the cases where it can't be explained by "lesser Maiar" or certqain individuals eg ... Beorn/ Radagast having a particular understanding of otherwise ordinary animals ....well it just seems a weakness to me...... keep thinking of Skippy and Lassie...

But the thing I want to know concerns Asfaloth ..... the "elf horse" .... is there more significance to that than him being a horse owned by an elf? In the appendixes it mentions Glorfindel riding up on his white horse - surely it can't have been the same one..... or is there an implication of some race of immortal elf horses......?

Lobelia · 08-12-2004, 09:21 PM

But the thing I want to know concerns Asfaloth ..... the "elf horse" .... is there more significance to that than him being a horse owned by an elf? In the appendixes it mentions Glorfindel riding up on his white horse - surely it can't have been the same one..... or is there an implication of some race of immortal elf horses......?[/QUOTE]

Good point, Mithalwen! I wonder about this too. Glorfindel's horse is pretty bright and able to keep Frodo on his back, just as Shadowfax does with his riders. Do the Elves have - well, Elvish horses, or do they just breed them as beautifully as they do everything else?

Maybe Glorfindel's horse has a meara in his background? After all, the Rohirrim are just ordinary humans who are good at breeding horses, and they can't possibly have found a way to breed the ancestors of Shadowfax. Maybe the Elves did it originally? Does anyone know?

THE Ka · 08-13-2004, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I doubt that any cat would care about anyone's opinion of them ...... dogs think they are humans... cats think they are gods.... and they do have Baudelaire and Verlaine to fight their corner... of course cats do have that love of sitting on paper which is annoying for scholars.......

In the UK cats were regarded as both lucky and unlucky according to region .... the long association with witchcraft maybe...

Tolkien makes up for the eaten ponies in the Hobbit in LOTR .... Bill and Merry's ponies all survive ..... even Boromir's horse gets home.... but the talking animal stuff... hmmmm in the cases where it can't be explained by "lesser Maiar" or certqain individuals eg ... Beorn/ Radagast having a particular understanding of otherwise ordinary animals ....well it just seems a weakness to me...... keep thinking of Skippy and Lassie...

But the thing I want to know concerns Asfaloth ..... the "elf horse" .... is there more significance to that than him being a horse owned by an elf? In the appendixes it mentions Glorfindel riding up on his white horse - surely it can't have been the same one..... or is there an implication of some race of immortal elf horses......?

I can see why Tolkien based most of his works upon the ethnics of myth from northern europe... If Tolkien had grown and lived in northern africa and the middle east, the fact that cats were governed by Sauron's will would have been changed dramatically, (think of cats being viewed and respected much like shadowflax or the Eagles). If you know your Ancient Egyptian and Persian and Lybian mythology you might have an understanding of the point i'm trying to make.

As for "witchcraft" and cats... First of all, as a Scholar i would like to point out that the time period of the Inquisitions was the churches way of establishing (and with vindictive jealousy against both royalty and state) that they were in "command". Also, they wished to establish and utterly control the roles of both women and men. When cats came into the matter is untraceable, but it was one way and symbol the church saw as influencing the stupid multitude with their cause. Thus, cats went from good, okay, and then to "evil".

Since this cat subject seems to be interesting to a wide range of people, i would suguest this valueable resource to all who wish to read it:

Cult of the Cat by:Patricia Dale-Green (it is currently out of print at some websites but, it can be found in mostly any buy and sell bookstore.good luck!)

Blessed Be, THE Ka

Mithalwen · 08-13-2004, 11:16 AM

I am not sure I think there is anything "magical" abou the Mearas...beyond a remarkable bloodline, carefully nurtured by the Rohirrim and reserved like anything of the finest quality for the greatest among them ..Shadowfax....well he may come almost into the Huan category.....

I know that Tolkien felt that Elves had an instinctive understanding of animals and so I don't think Asfaloth's obedience is implausible even if he were an "ordinary" horse albeit reared and schooled by elves.... I suppose it is simplest to view the term "elf horse" as being used merely to distinguish it from the black riders horses..... and maybe Glorfindel always had white horses..... like some people always buy the same make of car..

Sandro · 08-13-2004, 11:19 PM

Great point, Ka! The Egyptians revered the cats (even built a necropolis for them), scarabs, falcons, cows, etc. They feared such animals as snakes, crocodiles, and jackels. respected, but feared. Thus the revered ones were "good" and the feared ones "bad". Same thing with Tolkien.

Plus, Tolkien never says wolves are evil. He says that the Wargs are a malicious and violent breed of wolves. If my memory serves me, no one is ever attacked by wolvee, just wargs. some things are bred to be evil. Not all the Eagles were good, as mentioned in The Hobbit. Not all the Ravens were bad. Some animals, such as the Mumakil, were just put to evil means.

08-09-2004, 02:34 PM	#1
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	updating a link Ëalar and Incarnation __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

08-10-2004, 11:41 AM	#4
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	I doubt that any cat would care about anyone's opinion of them ...... dogs think they are humans... cats think they are gods.... and they do have Baudelaire and Verlaine to fight their corner... of course cats do have that love of sitting on paper which is annoying for scholars....... In the UK cats were regarded as both lucky and unlucky according to region .... the long association with witchcraft maybe... Tolkien makes up for the eaten ponies in the Hobbit in LOTR .... Bill and Merry's ponies all survive ..... even Boromir's horse gets home.... but the talking animal stuff... hmmmm in the cases where it can't be explained by "lesser Maiar" or certqain individuals eg ... Beorn/ Radagast having a particular understanding of otherwise ordinary animals ....well it just seems a weakness to me...... keep thinking of Skippy and Lassie... But the thing I want to know concerns Asfaloth ..... the "elf horse" .... is there more significance to that than him being a horse owned by an elf? In the appendixes it mentions Glorfindel riding up on his white horse - surely it can't have been the same one..... or is there an implication of some race of immortal elf horses......? __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-13-2004, 11:16 AM	#7
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	I am not sure I think there is anything "magical" abou the Mearas...beyond a remarkable bloodline, carefully nurtured by the Rohirrim and reserved like anything of the finest quality for the greatest among them ..Shadowfax....well he may come almost into the Huan category..... I know that Tolkien felt that Elves had an instinctive understanding of animals and so I don't think Asfaloth's obedience is implausible even if he were an "ordinary" horse albeit reared and schooled by elves.... I suppose it is simplest to view the term "elf horse" as being used merely to distinguish it from the black riders horses..... and maybe Glorfindel always had white horses..... like some people always buy the same make of car.. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-13-2004, 11:19 PM	#8
Sandro Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Always here, never there. Posts: 25	Great point, Ka! The Egyptians revered the cats (even built a necropolis for them), scarabs, falcons, cows, etc. They feared such animals as snakes, crocodiles, and jackels. respected, but feared. Thus the revered ones were "good" and the feared ones "bad". Same thing with Tolkien. Plus, Tolkien never says wolves are evil. He says that the Wargs are a malicious and violent breed of wolves. If my memory serves me, no one is ever attacked by wolvee, just wargs. some things are bred to be evil. Not all the Eagles were good, as mentioned in The Hobbit. Not all the Ravens were bad. Some animals, such as the Mumakil, were just put to evil means. __________________ "It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing. Such a little thing." -Boromir, Captain of Gondor

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08-09-2004, 06:11 PM	#2
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	It seems to me that in most cases the only creatures which can really be held accountable for any evil acts they do are the ones who are "sentient," such as Shelob and Huan. The others seem to simply have been taken by the darkness and corrupted (ie: Mumakil, crebain). I wasn't aware that cats were said to have come from Mordor! Very cool... well, they certainly are sneaky.

08-12-2004, 09:21 PM	#5
Lobelia Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 150	But the thing I want to know concerns Asfaloth ..... the "elf horse" .... is there more significance to that than him being a horse owned by an elf? In the appendixes it mentions Glorfindel riding up on his white horse - surely it can't have been the same one..... or is there an implication of some race of immortal elf horses......?[/QUOTE] Good point, Mithalwen! I wonder about this too. Glorfindel's horse is pretty bright and able to keep Frodo on his back, just as Shadowfax does with his riders. Do the Elves have - well, Elvish horses, or do they just breed them as beautifully as they do everything else? Maybe Glorfindel's horse has a meara in his background? After all, the Rohirrim are just ordinary humans who are good at breeding horses, and they can't possibly have found a way to breed the ancestors of Shadowfax. Maybe the Elves did it originally? Does anyone know?