distortions in relationships in LOTR

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Goodness. Such anti-slash feeling. I think that it's just misunderstood. I was asked by a current poster to address this question.

I am a slash writer, as well as a long-term (if inactive) member of the Barrow-downs. I mostly left the Downs because, after a year and a half, I found the discussions revolved through the same topics over and over again. I am very religious, but Buddhist, not Christian. Buddhism is a monastic religion and so has no rules about who you should or shouldn't sleep with -- since a Buddhist monk shouldn't sleep with anyone. The gay/hetero argument is irrelevant.

I write slash because it is outside of canon. It's a challenge for me as a writer to build plausibility for it, to keep true to the flavor and voice of Tolkien while ranging far afield.

It is so far "off the map" from Tolkien that I feel it is less intrusive on his vision. I'm on a completely different page, borrowing the world and characters and texture in much the same way that he borrowed from Beowulf (most here probably know Tolkien was a noted Beowulf scholar and began his lectures by quoting Beowulf in Old English; he's known for completely changing the view of that work with his essay The Monsters and the Critics).

I feel that to keep true to the flavor of Tolkien it's important to have a greater meaning, what Tolkien in his essay On Fairy Stories called a "piercing glimpse" beyond the fabric of story. But we are, fortunately, not restricted to the same themes as Tolkien.

The underlying theme of The Lord of the Rings is endings, death, and what lies beyond it. This theme is largely why the work has such spiritual meaning for many; (though if anyone asserts that the LotR is inherently Christian, I will bean them with the allegory stick - Tolkien's vision of fairy tales is both more general and more profound than any specific religious doctrine. According to Tolkien, indoctrination is the antithesis of the Fairy Story).

Endings, the afterlife and so forth are not the only themes for a fairy tale. Or for a Tolkienesque story.

According to Jung, mythological archetypal themes correspond to natural rites of passage, stages of life. Including the final stage into the next life - whatever that may be - which Tolkien addresses. Other main stages include crossing into adulthood, marriage, coming into one's inheritance or maturity. These are all troubled stages with no pat answers, thus the need for mythological archetypes (forgive me fellow non-Christians) to "work out your own salvation."

The romance contends with the theme of sacrifice and inter-dependence of relationships, and is a very important thread in the world of mythology and fairy tale. While it is appears superficial (like fantasy itself), in fact, the way a relationship subsumes the self is a very difficult and tangled matter. It is a crisis of identity, a negotiation of boundaries, and either taking ones place in the world of family, or acting against that role (such as in Tristan and Isolde, or the elven maiden Luthien). Anyone who believes romance does not belong in Tolkien's world needs to re-read the story of Beren and Luthien, and note what Tolkien has written on his gravestone.

Slash adds, for those who do not have doctrinal problems with it (note I do not say spiritual, as many Christians do accept homosexuality), an added degree of poignancy to this crisis of identity, boundaries, and ones role in society. Not to mention the confusion of ones role in an agrarian and feudalistic society of the majority of Middle Earth, and the complex class distinctions in the Shire. (I particularly am fascinated by the latter.) It takes the same fundamental questions of the romance and looks at them from another angle.

The vast majority of slash readers (and writers) are women, I think largely for the same reasons that little girls play house: relationships seem to be important to women. Men, regardless of their feelings about homosexuality, tend to be... uncomfortable with slash. Most are unable to bypass the visuals of two men together (let alone two hobbits) to even begin to deal with the theme. It doesn't have the same interest or impact. I'll confess that female/female slash makes me equally queasy.

But do not dismiss romance or slash as being automatically pornographic. There's a great deal of depth available in the subject, particularly if you have a perceptive author.

That said, much of fanfiction is really lousy, and slash is no exception. The LotR fanfiction tends to be worse than most because Tolkien's voice is unusually difficult to capture, and few people understand why the story is so powerful.

- Maril

[ninlaith]

I believe this is all a matter of ignorance. We have become such a warped society that everything is becoming taboo. Even things that are wholesome and have been held true for decades. Everyone searches for a deeper meaning that isn't there and should have never even been thought about. The basis of which LOTR is written is friendship. Friendship is everywhere. Absolutlely everywhere. Friendship, brotherhood, loyalty, trust, devotion, and love. Not all of these values have to be tied in with lust. They can exisit among friends as well. It outrages me that people think so harshly on such joyous matters always trying to twist them into evil things. If you read closely at tolkien interviews you can see that they major issue he's trying to convey is friendship. I believe that Tolkien wanted people to focus more on Sam than any other. Sam was full of loyalty and devotion. He felt all of this for his master and friend at all times. He loved him, they were best friends, they were more than friends but more than brothers. But there is no deeper meaning than best friends. It's disheartening that society or the new teenage generation would search for such vulgar deeper meanings. I think we sneer at the unrecognizable friendship instead of searching for a friendship like that for ourselves.We would rather kick people while they're down and leave them than help them up to complete the journey together.

[Isowen]

I have never seen an example of this on the Barrow-Downs and it seems ,yare nande, that you have read many more threads than I have here, though I usually stick to Novices and Newcomers. I think nobody has the right to distort relationships within lotr, but maybe it could be considered an opinion being voiced, rather than a distortion of relationships.

[Evisse the Blue]

I'll censor myself a little as not to sound accusing, especially with so few smilies at hand.
I have trouble understanding why anyone with writing talent and abilities and appreciation for Tolkien's words to boot would want to slash Tolkien's characters. I mean, why not create your own characters and slash them? If you agree that slash is not cannon then what you have is out-of-character writing: the characters may bear Tolkien's given names but they not their personality. In other words, why not create your own story, set in a fantasy world to explore the implications of slash on identity crisis, etc. Sorry of I appear to be picking on you particularly, Maril, but I am actually expressing a dissatisfaction with the slash fanfics I read. The badly written ones posed no problem to me as I left unfinished, the well-written ones were much worse because they seemed a paradox: it's plausible but it's impossible. Perhaps I should also add that cannon means a lot to me: Part of the charm of LOTR is that it's written by Tolkien: he was a talented, very learned man, and he has the ultimate say when it comes to his creation. At least that's how I see it. That's my opinion about all non cannon writing, be it slash or other unusual pairings.

About slash specifically, and why so many people are trying to reinterpret great works as containing same-sex relationships (especially when it's clear that the writer did not intend it) - I think it's part of this whole campaign of making homosexuality acceptable: let's associate it with a popular thing, even if it's only for laughs, people will come to tolerate gays more like this. Well, I don't know about others but I find myself much more tolerant toward gays when these tasteless jokes are not being made. If anything, it has the opposite effect...

[Lyta_Underhill]

I have trouble understanding why anyone with writing talent and abilities and appreciation for Tolkien's words to boot would want to slash Tolkien's characters. I mean, why not create your own characters and slash them? If you agree that slash is not cannon then what you have is out-of-character writing: the characters may bear Tolkien's given names but they not their personality.

Ever a controversy, isn't it? My own personal view is that if one were to "slash" Tolkien's characters and stay true to Tolkien, there would still be the absence of the lust factor. The friendships would remain, and the rest would be perhaps implied but not explicated. If anyone has seen the outstanding film "Gods and Monsters" with the inimitable Sir Ian McKellen (one of his finest roles!), you might remember James Whale's flashbacks to World War One and how the element of his homosexuality was intertwined with his hectic friendships in the thick of battle, how the images came back to him at the end, etc.; I think such an element is present but suppressed in the everyday, a sort of subtext for life. Only a few choose to make it a theme. With Frodo and Sam, this is not the theme. It is the friendship and sacrifice which is stressed foremost. But I don't fault anyone for wishing to explore this hidden theme, however absent it may be in Tolkien's focus in Lord of the Rings. But, as we say over in the 'Canonicity' thread, it ain't canon! (One might argue that such a theme is a subtext of the cultural history of British Public School, but it is probably not good to go there, especially since I'm not British--I did read an interesting overview of this 'culture' in an autobiographical work of C.S. Lewis' once, though, so it isn't illusory!)

Cheers and Tally-ho!
Lyta (NOT a Brit, but occasionally mistaken for one)

[Encaitare]

As a slash fan and occasional slash writer, I would just like to say that the intent is not to disrespect Professor Tolkien's work. Some people look at Sam and Frodo and say, "Oh, they're so obviously gay." I think I can safely speak for most slashfans when I say that I don't honestly believe that they were lovers -- but what if they were? It's simply the "what-if?" aspect that we enjoy. I know that purists tend to have an extreme dislike for anything of an AU nature, but I'm openminded towards pretty much anything, even stuff I don't agree with, as long as it's written well.

I write slash because it is outside of canon. It's a challenge for me as a writer to build plausibility for it, to keep true to the flavor and voice of Tolkien while ranging far afield.

-- Well said, Marileangorifurnimaluim!

I mean, why not create your own characters and slash them?

--Evisse

Oh, it shall happen, as soon as I get ideas...

And I believe someone, possibly Marileangorifurnimaluim, said that guys seemed skeeved out by the closeness of Sam and Frodo and the concept of slash... and yet many guys adore femme-slash. Gee, I wonder why...

As for Legolas and Gimli... well, it's... interesting.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I think I can safely speak for most slashfans when I say that I don't honestly believe that they were lovers -- but what if they were? It's simply the "what-if?" aspect that we enjoy.

Yes. How would that work in such a prudish and conservative society? How would they react? If they even knew. I did research into attitudes towards homosexuality before the creation of the term, as I believe Tolkien's world wouldn't even consider the possibility.

Historically, it turned out that among the upper classes it was considered an "eccentricity," and was only gossiped about behind closed doors. People of lower classes had a much rougher time, as they had less control over their destinies.

In sense it was freer, as people were more innocent and didn't notice obvious signs. It was viewed (if known at all) not as a classification of people, but as something unusual about that one individual.

Also, the lines were more blurred, because without the concept "gay," there wasn't the worry, "Oh no, if I hug a man I must be gay." So back then, lines were crossed, and there wasn't the emotional turmoil of redefining oneself based on one or another incident. I was surprised to find that it was viewed as a 'boys will be boys' sort of thing -- up until adulthood. Then one had obligations to the family. The social expectations were the main issue. One would never "come out" to ones family because one didn't talk about *ahem* 'the birds and the bees.' The answer to such a confession would be: "You come of age on such and such date. We've arranged a marriage with such and so. We realise you are in your tweens and sowing a few wild oats, but it is past time for you to be responsible. We expect grandchildren within the year."

The roles in society and family expectations become very complex. Then, with class distinctions, you have the power imbalance between someone of a wealthy class and someone whose family is poor: how can one keep the friendship from being destroyed in the process? Would there be a choice to end this to preserve the friendship? What is the internal impact of crossing so many lines?

Sorry, didn't mean to run on there.

I mean, why not create your own characters and slash them?

--Evisse

Evisse, that's the argument usually used to dismiss all fanfiction. "Why not just write your own characters?" I think any writer's jaw would go slack at that sentiment.

That said, of course I do.

- Maril

[E. Fester]

I write slash occasionally, and read it, although I have to say that there aren't many authors worth reading.

I don't interpret Frodo and Sam's relationship to be anything more than an extremely strong friendship; they kiss, hold hands, etc., more than most friends, but people need physical contact. It's as simple as that. Going without any form of physical contact is extremely lonely, especially if you're trying to save the world

I don't have anything against slash if it's well-written, the characters are interesting and the relationships are well-done. What I dislike is fangirl gratification--girls who just want to see their objects of lust in bed together, without any thought as to what they find attractive about each other. It's boring, predictable, 2-dimensional, and immensely irritating (i.e. the slash equivalent of a romance novel). The emotional factor is necessary; physical attraction is too, but that's no excuse for graphic PWP.

I like slash. That's a fact. I like het (although I don't read it, only write it). Also a fact. I just like character interaction, both in friendships and romantic relationships. I understand why some people dislike slash; I used to, strongly, as the only slashfic I read was (unfortunately) in the 'Humour' section. The piece that got me interested in slash was short, extremely well-written, and rated PG-13. It's still one of my favourites.

The main argument against slash is that it's uncanon. But really, most fanfiction is. Even writing about a canon event from one character's point of view--which I think is called a POV fic--may be uncanon to an extent, because there's no way of telling if the original author would approve of the portrayal of his character.

Fanfiction (with the possible exception of parody) is a tribute to the author. It shows that you like and admire the characters and find them interesting. And while I find some of Tolkien's characters slightly tedious, I think some of them are a work of genius.

On that note, I haven't slashed LotR.

Originally Posted by Evisse the Blue

I mean, why not create your own characters and slash them?

I do

[Lyta_Underhill]

No fic writer I've ever seen has shown the talent of Sophocles, in other words, I've yet to see a Tolkien fic that is so well written, be it slash or no, that the sheer artistic merit of the work would justify its 'non-canonicity' (if that's a word )

I personally do not believe that a work need be a perfect copy nor be flawless to be "justified." A fanfiction does not need to ask justification from the primary author. I simply prefer those that ring true to the style and outlook I perceive to be "Tolkienesque."

There are degrees of canonical bend, and the way I imagine Tolkien, he would have hated slash fics, be them well-written

There is a danger in this as well, as the "what would Tolkien think?" impulse could conceivably hamper an individual's creative impulses. In fact, I think this is one thing that keeps my nascent fanfictions incomplete. In the world of Middle Earth, Tolkien reigns supreme in my eyes and I have the desire to at least respect his presented outlook and model my words upon his expressed ideas. However, the danger arises when we start to say "Tolkien would not have approved of this or that" and the second-guessing and uncertainty sets in for a would-be writer.

If the writer discards the need to remain true to Tolkien's conception in every particular, then there is more freedom to create. And since I consider all fanfiction to be "non-canon" anyway, I see no need for the restriction to be placed. There are so many uncertainties in Tolkien's world that the creative spark is endlessly struck. Many hidden realms exist within his sub-created and delineated one, and once another writer touches it, it becomes a variation, an interpretive work, and the individual view of truth within the sub-reality may be stretched for some and violated for others.

Non-canon fic is a hurricane which shatters this delicate balance simply to see where the uprooted pieces would land and what the overall effect would be. The problem is that, by uprooting these pieces, (read characters), they lose their initial meaning, therefore all their world loses meaning.

I can see how this effect occurs, but I always attributed it to bad writing, a jarring of the reader outside the carefully woven subrealm. Personally, I think a well-written fanfiction can enrich the realm, even if it is non-canon (which in almost all cases it is, leaving out the sticky wicket of CJT). The badfics do not, in my opinion, have enough power in them to wield hurricane strength destructive force. They become simply a child's view of a larger realm, an imperfect or blurry picture, a heavy filter through a brain that has not adequately communicated or word-painted the aspects that make Middle Earth appealing to the reader in question. But to attribute approval and/or disapproval to the maker himself is a dangerous thing. For all judgement filters through the mind of the one making this assertion. Thus, this topic is highly subjective. It would be good for all to remember that this is inevitable and allow for it.

Cheers!
Lyta

[Encaitare]

I can see where you're going with this, by the way. I know that slash is usually presented as AU. Huzzah.

Well, I wasn't trying to attack you with your own words or anything, just curious.

To appease the liberal masses, I will admit I have read some slash. A couple were quite well written, and I respect that. The ones that are more emotionally based rather than erotically based are a bit better, in my opinion.

Well done, there, Sapphire! I can definitely respect that you gave it a shot and then formed your opinion based on that. Seems a bit fairer to me. And yeah, the erotic stuff... yech. Sometimes really, really unnecessary. I personally prefer just to explore the emotional bit.

Seems we've mostly reached an understanding, and sorry if I did get "PMSy" at ya, Sapphire. I guess I'm just a wholehearted defender of the slash.

~Encaitare

[Evisse the Blue]

On the topic of all fanfic being non-canon: I cannot agree to such a simplistic view; it's like saying that every one of us is guilty because of the original sin. Some are more innocent than others, and that's how some fics are more canon than others. As for not being able to guess what a character would have thought in a certain situation: that depends on a writer's psychological insight. We all make guesses about what goes on in each other's minds, and the better we know that person, the more accurate these guesses are.
When I read a fic that's well-written and does not stray from canon, I get a feeling of authenticity, while when I read a well-written slash fic, for instance, (to get back on topic), the feeling is that of frustration and confusion. And that's not because I have something against slash (slash fic directed at other fandoms in which slash is conceivable is okay, slash fic in Tolkien's world is like puting an elephant in a china store).

I realise how this debate may turn into an endless reiteration of divergent opinions, so I'll try to stay away from this topic from now on unless I think of some really strong arguments to prove my point.