** Revising The Voyage of Earendil

[Findegil]

I am not adamant on any addition I did. But I still think we should name the Battle of Nan-Tathren or we should make a refference to defeats that the Elves suffered in the long time of the war. I think that it would be nice iluminat the "long and bitterly they contested the passage" of Sirion. And the only thinks that could do so are the Battle of Nan-Tathren and the Battle of the Pools. Since we agree that the Battle of the Pools is the riskier one, I would think that is even more an argument to use the Battle of Nan-Tathren. But if it even that is found to risky we should at least try to emphasis the period of time that elapsed during the contest of the passage of Sirion. But in the moment I can not see how we could do it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

. I think that it would be nice iluminat the "long and bitterly they contested the passage" of Sirion.

I agree - but again, I don't think we should include things just because we think they would be nice. The question is whether it's canonically sound.

Maedhros, what do you think?

[Maédhros]

At the very most, I can see including the battle in Nan-Tathren without explicit reference to the Noldor - but I'm very uncertain about this also, and to be honest I'd rather leave it out also. But if both of you are adamant about retaining it, I could compromise there.

I think that you are right Aiwendil in stating that the Material from the Lost Tales is very risky to use it here.
I'm not even sure as to we should use the battle in Nan-Tathren material myself.

If you or Findegil could propose a way to do so without compromising the canonicity of it, I would be fine with it.

I think that more impartant that this, is to try and finish off the other points like the Gil-Galad position.
Regarding Gil-Galad, I think now that after some months of thinking about it, I think that it would be best if we follow Aiwendil's suggestion.

[Aiwendil]

Maedhros:

I also would rather go with eliminating the Nan-Tathren battle completely.

I'm pleased that you now agree with my suggestion on the Gil-Galad issue (though to be honest I had to wade through quite a bit of the early discussion to recall the details of that issue).

I've been thinking about Lindil's concern back then regarding the kingship passing from the house of Fingolfin to the house of Finarfin without much gravity, and I do think I can sympathize with that concern now. But unless I'm mistaken we needn't actually come right out and say that Gil-Galad inherited the High Kingship; he is called a king of the Noldor, but it can be left ambiguous whether this is in fact the kingship of all the Noldor. "King" in the restricted sense still need not conflict with Earendil's "lordship" over the exiles of Gondolin.

[Findegil]

Okay, so the War of Wrath is settled: we take the additions from Ab but skip that of LT. Thus we have:
Forum formatted:

Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
<AB2 {Here the} The host of [Eönwë] was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of [Eglarest], where [Ingwion] son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.>{Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.} But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great<AB2{ Great} war came now into Beleriand, and [Eönwë] drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field{.}>, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned {unto him}[now] all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East{;}<AB2{ He summoned now all Elves, Men}, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons.> {and}But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of {his}Eönwës arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.{
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.} And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords;<QII and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs;> and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by [Eärendil] son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
<Sil77 The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. ><AB2 The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. But at last [Eönwë] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,<AB1 and Morgoth[‘s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Eönwë].>
<BTOf the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.{...}
{The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. }There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.{…} The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.>
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …

Plain Text:

Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
The host of Eönwë was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of Eglarest, where Ingwion son of Ingwë, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore. But at the last Eönwë came up out of the West, and great war came now into Beleriand, and Eönwë drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned now all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East, Dwarves, beasts and birds unto his standard, who did not elect to fight for Morgoth. But the power and dread of Morgoth was very great and many did not obey the summons. But Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of Eönwës arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet. And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Eönwë; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords; and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs; and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by Eärendil son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. The waters of Sirion lay between the hosts; and long and bitterly they contested the passage. But at last Eönwë crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth, and Morgoth‘s army fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of Eönwë.
Of the march of the host of Eönwë to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.
There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown …

What I got out of our discussion about Gil-Galad so fare was that we did take him as the son of Orordreth and send him in the year after the Dagor Bargollach to the havens of the Falas. From there he removed to the isle of Balar with Círdan. We only do mention him in the last kinslaying when he led the remanents of the Lothlim to Balar.

But it seems to me that Aiwendil did know doubt the decision of Gil-Galad being the son of Orordreth. Would it be a solution to change him from a High-King of the Noldor in Middle-Earth only to a King of the Noldor at Sirions Mouth? (That does not mean that he could not become High-King later in the Second Age, when he is clearly the most might King of the Elves in Middle-Earth.)

I tried to re-read the thread to get hold of all the not settle issues, but finishing it I could not remeber them all. (Maybe I was to tired.) At least some of my additions to the voyages of Eärendil have nither been rejecte nor approved finaly.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:

But it seems to me that Aiwendil did know doubt the decision of Gil-Galad being the son of Orordreth.

I still think that he should be the son of Orodreth, despite whatever doubts I may have.

Would it be a solution to change him from a High-King of the Noldor in Middle-Earth only to a King of the Noldor at Sirions Mouth?

I think that if we just call him "King", it can be left safely ambiguous.