LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 06 – The Old Forest

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I have found that this chapters always seems to lead to discussions about Old Man Willow being an Ent who has become Tree-ish. Is he not a Huorn (If that’s how you spell it)? But then we get into the whole issue of Sam's cousin seeing an Ent (or maybe Ent-wife) on the northern borders of the shire and making all the connections that perhaps he is "Old Woman Willow" which is absurd, Tolkien would have mentioned this otherwise, don’t you think?

I think that Old Man Willow may be some kind of central point in the forest's proverbial 'Nervous system' If you take my meaning. To me He seemed to fling the anger of the forest upon the Hobbits, It is my belief that this is because He remembers the Bonfire when many trees were killed and so is attempting some kind of revenge. Not just for himself, but also for the whole forest, I have had this belief for some time now but have never really spoken of it as it was too odd and hard to put into words what I actually mean.
I think that some how the whole forest must be interconnected, we know that the trees can speak to one another with their own tongs, but is there some kind of supernatural way that they all feel one another’s pain? As Old man Willow is the only one who went further than sticking a root out to trip them up I suspect he is a major Power in the Tree community.

I do not know about you but how Tom says "Is that All?" when Frodo and Sam tell him of what had happened it sort of suggests that it has happened before, maybe with a badger or something.

This, granted, may all be a complete pile of twaddle, if so, ignore it and I'll go sit in a corner and chew on some tree roots.

[Bombadil]

Previously posted by Estelyn:

The hobbits have only just left the Shire and already encounter danger not from the Ring or the Riders, but from a hostile environment that has nothing to do with Sauron’s influence,

this is an odd chapter to me because of the absence of such evils. It almost felt like Tolkien placed this scene in afterwards, or that he used this point in time to introduce the enigma Tom Bombadil. Does anyone know if anything of the sort occurred? I know he re-wrote riddles in the dark in the Hobbit at one point, was this chapter always in his plans?

[davem]

Of Course this is not the first time Tom has encountered Old Man Willow. In the Adventures of Tom Bombadil we have the following verses:

Up woke Willow-man, began upon his singing,
sang Tom fast asleep under branches swinging;
in a crack caught him tight: snick! it closed together,
trapped Tom Bombadil, coat and hat and feather.

'Ha, Tom Bombadil! What be you a-thinking,
peeping inside my tree, watching me a-drinking
deep in my wooden house, tickling me with feather,
dripping wet down my face like a rainy weather?'

'You let me out again, Old Man Willow!
I am stiff lying here; they're no sort of pillow,
your hard crooked roots. Drink your river-water!
Go back to sleep again like the River-daughter!'

Willow-man let him loose when he heard him speaking;
locked fast his wooden house, muttering and creaking,
whispering inside the tree. Out from willow-dingle
Tom went walking on up the Withywindle.
Under the forest-eaves he sat a while a-listening:
on the boughs piping birds were chirruping and whistling.
Butterflies about his head went quivering and winking,
until grey clouds came up, as the sun was sinking.

What we have here is OMW attacking Tom in the way he attacked the Hobbits. He sings Tom to sleep & swallows him. Which raises the question of whether OMW is out for revenge simply against hobbits for their 'attack' on the forest, or whether he really is out for revenge against 'all that go on two legs, & also of Tom's relationship to the forest. Tom himself, it seems is percieved as a foe to the trees. This episode follows straight on from Tom's first encounter with Goldberry, who is also malicious:

Old Tom in summertime walked about the meadows
gathering the buttercups, running after shadows,
tickling the bumblebees that buzzed among the flowers,
sitting by the waterside for hours upon hours.

There his beard dangled long down into the water:
up came Goldberry, the River-woman's daughter;
pulled Tom's hanging hair. In he went a-wallowing
under the water-lilies, bubbling and a-swallowing.

'Hey, Tom Bombadil! Whither are you going?'
said fair Goldberry. 'Bubbles you are blowing,
frightening the finny fish and the brown water-rat,
startling the dabchicks, and drowning your feather-hat!'

'You bring it back again, there's a pretty maiden!'
said Tom Bombadil. 'I do not care for wading.
Go down! Sleep again where the pools are shady
far below willow-roots, little water-lady!'

Back to her mother's house in the deepest hollow
swam young Goldberry. But Tom, he would not follow;
on knotted willow-roots he sat in sunny weather,
drying his yellow boots and his draggled feather.

So we have the 'spirit' of the Withywindle river & the spirit of the trees of the forest out to get Tom, almost as if he is percieved by them as an intruder - does Tom really belong in the forest, or is he an 'outsider'? If so, where does his power come from, & how can he be called the spirit of the countryside, & 'master'? His 'power' seems absolute, in that he can 'tame' both the elements of the forest with his song:

He woke in morning-light, whistled like a starling,
sang, 'Come, derry-dol, merry-dol, my darling!'
He clapped on his battered hat, boots, and coat and feather;
opened the window wide to the sunny weather.

Wise old Bombadil, he was a wary fellow;
bright blue his jacket was, and his boots were yellow.
None ever caught old Tom in upland or in dingle,
walking the forest-paths, or by the Withywindle,
or out on the lily-pools in boat upon the water.
But one day Tom, he went and caught the River-daughter,
in green gown, flowing hair, sitting in the rushes,
singing old water-songs to birds upon the bushes.

He caught her, held her fast! Water-rats went scuttering
reeds hissed, herons cried, and her heart was fluttering.
Said Tom Bombadil: 'Here's my pretty maiden!
You shall come home with me! The table is all laden:
yellow cream, honeycomb, white bread and butter;
roses at the window-sill and peeping round the shutter.
You shall come under Hill! Never mind your mother
in her deep weedy pool: there you'll find no lover!'

Old Tom Bombadil had a merry wedding,
crowned all with buttercups, hat and feather shedding;
his bride with forgetmenots and flag-lilies for garland
was robed all in silver-green. He sang like a starling,
hummed like a honey-bee, lilted to the fiddle,
clasping his river-maid round her slender middle.

He seems 'master' here - OMW realeases him on command, Goldberry not only releases him at his word, but leaves her river & marries him.

So, who, or what, is Tom? He seems at once both an outsider, attacked by the forest spirits, yet able to control them absolutely.

[Lalwendë]

Hookbill, what I think (and looking at my post it wasn't really clear) is that Old Man Willow is more of a tree who has grown Entish. He can't move about as an Ent would, but he does have some of the intelligence or cunning of an Ent.

I know what you mean about Old Man Willow being a central point to the air of malice in the Old Forest, as though he is an influence on the other trees. So, here's one person who certainly thinks you've no need to eat tree-roots!

Davem, now I'll have to go and read Adventures of Tom Bombadil again! It's just struck me that Goldberry is rather like Ginny Greenteeth, the weed that floats on slow moving rivers and brooks, and which is supposed to be a female water spirit who drags the unwary under (this folk story is a very vivid childhood memory, probably told to me to make sure I stayed away from waterweed).

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalwende

Davem, now I'll have to go and read Adventures of Tom Bombadil again! It's just struck me that Goldberry is rather like Ginny Greenteeth, the weed that floats on slow moving rivers and brooks, and which is supposed to be a female water spirit who drags the unwary under (this folk story is a very vivid childhood memory, probably told to me to make sure I stayed away from waterweed).

We speculated on this before, here:
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ghlight=powler.

There's an interesting book on, among other things, Tolkien's sources, The Uncharted Realms of Tolkien, reviewed here:
http://home.insightbb.com/~sauron/UnchartedRealms.htm.

Interestingly enough, in the Poem Tom is captured by Goldberry, Willowman, a family of Badgers, & finally, in his bedroom, by the Barrow Wight, & he escapes in exactly the same way from all of them - by commanding them to go backto sleep.

Goldberry:'You bring it back again, there's a pretty maiden!'
said Tom Bombadil. 'I do not care for wading.
Go down! Sleep again where the pools are shady
far below willow-roots, little water-lady!

OMW:''You let me out again, Old Man Willow!
I am stiff lying here; they're no sort of pillow,
your hard crooked roots. Drink your river-water!
Go back to sleep again like the River-daughter!

Badgers:''Now, old Badger-brock, do you hear me talking?
You show me out at once! I must be a-walking.
Show me to your backdoor under briar-roses;
then clean grimy paws, wipe your earthy noses!
Go back to sleep again on your straw pillow,
like fair Goldberry and Old Man Willow!'

Barrow Wight:'Go out! Shut the door, and never come back after!
Take away gleaming eyes, take your hollow laughter!
Go back to grassy mound, on your stony pillow
lay down your bony head, like Old Man Willow,
like young Goldberry, and Badger-folk in burrow!
Go back to buried gold and forgotten sorrow!'

Its as if they should all be asleep, their awakening is somehow 'wrong', & Tom's role in the forest is to keep them all somnolent.

Finally, jumping back to the last chapter's debate, on the meaning of the name [i]Brandywine[/] - in the other Bombadil poem, Bombadil goes Boating, there is this verse:

Red flowed the Brandywine: with flame the river kindled.
as sun sank beyond the Shire, and then to grey it dwindled.
Mithe Steps empty stood. None was there to greet him.
Silent the Causeway lay. Said Tom: 'A merry meeting!'

Perhaps the brandy/fire relationship comes from this - at sunset the brown waters are turned firey red by the sunlight????

[Bêthberry]

Good of you to quote the Bombadil verse from Tales of the Perilous Realm, davem. And answer to Bombadil, it is salutary to recall that Bombadil was a character already conceived before Tolkien began LotR, and was not part of the mythology of the Silm.

We could consider Tolkien's explanation of Tom in Letter # 153:

In historical fact I put him in because I had already 'invented' him independently (he first appeared in the Oxford Magazine) and wanted an 'adventure' on the way. But I kept him in, and as he was, because he represents certain things otherwise left out. [N.B. Now there's a statement for you!] I do not mean him to be an allegory--or I should not have given him so particular embodying individual, and ridiculous a name--but 'allegory' is the only mode of exhibiting certain functions: he is then an 'allegory' , or an examplar, a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, [i]because they are 'other' and wholly idependent of the enquiring mind,a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with knowledge: Zoology and Botany not Cattle-breeding or Agruculture. Even the Elves hardly show this: they are primarily artists.

Now, we can take this with a grain of salt or not. Is Tom's enigmatic nature (another explanation of him from Tolkien, Letter # 144) the result of this alien transposition into a tale not wholly suitable? Was Tolkien so taken with this idea of representing something disappearing from the modern world that he happily accepted the fact that Tom does not fit well? After all, the demand that all parts of a work of art cohere competely is not an absolute requirement, and one quite often neglected if not denigrated by nonsense and fantastical literatures. Yet if Tolkien were adamant and serious about this point that knowledge was becoming more and more mechanical and bent on domination, why did he choose to clothe it in a ridiculous figure which has drawn scorn and derision if not neglect?

(It is, I think, highly significant that on this thread we have had Fordim and Sauce indulge in some silly nonsense posts, yes, indeed it is, Silmiel of Imladris. But of course with a nod towards wit and cleverness.)

Clearly, I think, Tolkien wanted a character who was himself wholly 'other'. There are things that order and rationality cannot include. The passage I quoted above concludes with this observation:

Also T.B. exhibits another point in his attitude to the Ring, and its failure to affect him. You must concentrate on some part, probably relatively small, of the World (Universe) whether to tell a tale, however long, or to learn anythig however fundamental--and therefore much will from that 'point of view' be left out, distorted on the circumference, or seem a discordant oddity. The power of the ring over all concerned, even the Wizards or Emissaries, is not a delusion--but it is not the whole picture, even of the then state and content of that part of the Universe.

Early in this thread Aiwendil made this observation about the worth of these three chapters, about why Tolkien did not excise them once he had straight in his mind what LotR was going to be about:

Looking at it this way, what Tolkien does is present a series of minor incidents each of which alters the tension in some way. Most add to it, a little bit at a time. One detracts from it - which only makes its eventual reappearance more striking. And only at the very climax does anything actually happen . A mistake too many authors make is to think that the reader is conscious only of what is happening at the moment, so that they think a constant level of action must be maintained for the story to be interesting. Tolkien realizes that readers have a memory and also a sense of anticipation, so that each of the little incidents he presents adds to the tension.

Tolkien himself in the first extant reference in his Letters to Bombadil suggests that there was a narrative reason for including these three chapters. (My, I am doing a fair bit of quoting today.)

Mr. Baggins began as a comic tale among conventional and inconsistent Grimm's fairy-tale dwarves, and got drawn into the edge of it--so that even Sauron the terrible peeped over the edge. And what more can hobbits do? They can be comic, but their comedy is suburban unless it is set against things more elemental. But the real fun about orcs and dragons (to my mind) was before their time. Perhaps a new (if similar) line? Do you think Tom Bombadil, the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside, could be made into the hero of a story? ...

This very early letter, before the sequel to the Hobbit was begun and while Tolkien was yet immersed in "the construction of elaborate and consistent mythology (and two languages)" shows Tolkien aware of the nature of narrative, of how to structure and organise events of a tale. Again, Tolkien appears to have been thinking of how to use Tom to contrast the hobbits and other events. Again, a recognition of how to use "the other" to set off his tale, even before it is written.

Having said all this in one post (that's what you get when I don't get around to posting on the thread for its entire week of life--you didn't think someone who constructed her entire RPG persona around Tom and Goldberry would not be here, did you?), I would like to return to davem comment about Goldberry.

davem wrote:

This episode follows straight on from Tom's first encounter with Goldberry, who is also malicious

Well now, yes, Goldberry pulls Tom into the water. And she appears to be in line with other perils Tom faces, as davem has pointed out, Old Man Willow, the badger folk and the barrow wight. Yet does Tom fear her? Can we say he views her as malicious? Tom calls out to her, "You bring it back, you pretty maiden." From the first, he is aware of Goldberry's gender. And he returns to her, to capture her and take her away from her mother:

Said Tom Bombadil: "Here's my pretty maiden!
You shall come home with me! The table is all laden
...
... Never mind your mother
in her deep weedy pool: there you'll find no lover!"

To me, there is little maliciousness here but much frisky play. Certainly, by the time we see Tom and Goldberry in The House of Bombadil, they have been much domesticated. This, however, is to jump ahead.

Oh, and, Evisse the Blue, I think you are right on about Tom's ability to make fun of himself. Maybe if Frodo had a little more sense of humour....

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Yet does Tom fear her? Can we say he views her as malicious? Tom calls out to her, "You bring it back, you pretty maiden." From the first, he is aware of Goldberry's gender. And he returns to her, to capture her and take her away from her mother

Well, playing Devil's advocate, I have to point out that Tom doesn't fear any of his 'attackers'!Goldberry does play the part of all the River 'goddesses', pulling the unwary traveller down into her underwater realm. The whole tone of the poem is comic - even the barrow wight is presented as a kind of pantomime demon figure, & is given short shrift by Tom, who shoos him out of his house.

I have to say, I've always felt there was something very 'primal' about the whole Tom & Goldberry relationship, as if we're witnessing forces of nature personified, rather than simply two odd inhabitants of the forest. Goldberry is the spirit of the river - a very 'feminine' force, beautiful, mysterious, but also deep, dangerous, consuming, like the river which is her 'mother ' winding sinuously through the heart of the forest (Withywindle = 'winding through the withies/willows'), but what is Tom? He's someone who has come into the forest, master, but not an aspect of the wood, as it & its inhabitants don't seem to like him very much! If he doesn't completely 'belong' in the story, does he really 'belong' in the Forest, either? He's both incredibly wise & incredibly (annoyingly?) simple. And in the next chapter he gets worse (or better!) In the earliest draft he tells the hobbits he is ab-origine. He's the first - but the first what? He seems to have simply decided to pop up in the Old Forest, & instantly has the run of the place, whether the inhabitants want him or not - he seems to have done the same with Lord of the Rings. He pops up in the book & dominates three chapters, & then, apart from a couple of mentions by other characters, disappears again.

Perhaps that's what some readers find annoying - he's the extravert uncle, who embarrasses his nieces & nephews with his antics, who they usually wish would just be quiet & act his age, but he's also the one they run to when they're in trouble, because he's the one they know will get them out of it, & make everything alright again (& then he'll straightaway do something silly again). Its like he's joie de vivre given physical form, who'll always do just as he pleases, laughing his head off & singing nonsense all the while. You simply can't decide whether you want to slap him or hug him. Half of you just wants him to go away (& let life be SERIOUS!!!!- MY GOD - don't you realise there are BLACK RIDERS out there, & a Ring of Power to be dealt with! Get REAL Man, for once in your life!) & the other half of you never wants him to leave, because while he's around you're safe - however irrational that feeling of safety might be.

I suspect he knows full well that he annoys the hell out of some readers, & that's part of the fun for him - my advice to them is pretend (if you can) not to be annoyed by him, because that just makes him worse.

'He only does it to annoy, because he knows it teases'.