Defending Minas Tirith a strategic error?

[lindil]

It is certainly a fair question, but there is much [as has been said in the earlier replies] to be said for Minas Tirith as a focal point, for the West and Sauron.

The point of Aragorn's Kingship is a major one. But also it is symbolically the capitol of the Exiles of Numenor. If it falls, their last outpost goes the way of Arnor and the Dunedain their will all become rangers and their families living in some 'hidden fastness'. The Gondorians were seemingly very proud, eeven in their decay. And none maybe more so than Denethor himself. He clearly was not going to move himself one inch from the seat of his power till he was deluded by the palantir into assuming the Ships coming from the South were the Corsairs.

Also, there is something within the demands of the story itself, all military strategy aside that necessitates a City of the good guys. So far in the story Edoras and Bree and Laketown are the representative dwellings of Men. Hardly anything that could have been a central rallying point against Sauron for thousands of years.

Always goods to examine strategies though - and not get oneself caught in a 'seige mentality' in any part of one's life, so a most worthy thread topic methinks.

[Son of Númenor]

In light of its outcome, I don't see how the defense of Minas Tirith could be construed as a strategic error.

However, for the purpose of the thread, I suppose we are putting aside the outcome to look at what other possibilites Gandalf, the Gondorians and the Rohirrim had in their fight against Sauron.

gradually withdraw in a slow, fighting, scorched-earth type pullback

Keep in mind, when the Rohirrim finally reached Minas Tirith, it was already under siege. How then, could they have engaged the enemy in another part of Gondor? They would have nothing to withdraw to except hordes of enemies between them and Minas Tirith. As for the Gondorians, they had no choice but to defend their keep: they were extremely out-manned and had no hope in any kind of major offensive maneuvre against a much larger and stronger army. Their only hope lay in defending a city that was well-protected and hard for enemy forces to penetrate.

The Rohirrim would have had no hope of fighting Sauron's foes head-on, even in a 'scorched-earth' battle; the primary purpose of the scorched-earth tactics use by the Russians in WWII was to destroy supplies so the Germans would freeze or starve to death. In the case of Sauron's armies, they were probably very well-equipped to begin with as far as food and supplies, the weather wasn't nearly as cold as the western USSR's, and the period of time in which the Rohirrim fought Sauron would have been too small for a scorched-earth policy to have any real effect on Sauron's army. The Rohirrim, instead, were able to utilize their strength. The strength of Minas Tirith was in defense, as it had been their primary means of warfare for hundreds of years. The Rohirrim were cavaliers, and so were best utilized in this battle as a charging force, who could do serious damage by attacking the enemy's weak flank, and who could draw attention away from the siege.

Gandalf's plan, even if it could be called a tactical risk (which I would dispute based on the above, and also because any military strategy they had adopted would necessarily be risky against an army as powerful as Sauron's), I don't think it could be called a tactical error. It was well-executed with the means available, and ultimately led to a victory.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Many good points above, and frankly, I would incline towards defending Minas Tirith, just not to the end, but at a given point pulling back through the mountains and back to Rohan. But for arguments sake:

Some comments:
1) The Witch King would be destroyed anyway when the Ring was destroyed.
2) You could envision a scenario where Eowyn killed the Witch King in the East March , edoras, etc.
3) Aragorn still might have a strong claim on the throne if he brought the Army of the Dead to free South Gondor and then harassed part of Sauron's army from South Gondor (and remember, his forces could always retreat through the Anfalas. Imagine Imrahil and Faramir leading M.T. remnants through the White Mountain passes to link up with Aragorn.
4) Rohan's cavalry was probably superior to Sauron's, and they would have had some 10,000 available in Rohan. On their home ground, and with strongholds in Eoras, Helm's Deep, Dunharrow, presumably Orthanc, etc., and with routes of retreat back through Enedwaith they would have been formidable. And battles in history have shown that forces fighting an invader tend to increase in efficacy. One example being the better performance of the Army of the Potomac against the Army of Northern Virginia at Gettysburg, where it was essentially on even numerical terms and arriving in a scattered manner.
5) The retreat would only have to be long enough to give the ringbearers time to succeed.
(And I suppose JRRT might still have made a scenario to save Frodo and the nassty, fat hobbit).
P.S. If destroying the Ring was all important, and the elves were leaving Middle-earth fairly soon (and can eventually be reborn in Aman) why didn't Elrond and Galadriel have at least part of their forces engage in fairly suicidal local offensives to further distract Sauron?

P.P.S. Anyone notice how "counterfactual histories" are rather popular in science fiction and general fiction, such as Newt Gingrich's Gettysburg-based American Civil War novels?

[Boromir88]

Son of Numenor
The Rohirrim were cavaliers, and so were best utilized in this battle as a charging force, who could do serious damage by attacking the enemy's weak flank, and who could draw attention away from the siege.

Nice point made, plust it would work really well to their advantage on a "flat plain." Movie didn't show it well but the land around Minas Tirith, especially Pelennor, was flat.

Tuor of Gondolin
5) The retreat would only have to be long enough to give the ringbearers time to succeed.

I agree, I think retreating would distract Sauron's eye, but still doesnt deal with the orcs left in Mordor. If a retreat happens, Sauron is probably smart enough to lay back and rebuild before he sends out more assaults upon the rest of Middle-Earth. Leaving Mordor still occupied, riding to the black gates emptied Saurons land, something retreating wouldn't do. Who knows? Sauron could get greedy like he is, and see he's got his chance right here and just empty his lands to go finish off the rest of the people of Middle-Earth. I do not see Sauron doing that however.

Tuor of Gondolin
And battles in history have shown that forces fighting an invader tend to increase in efficacy.

There are many examples of these throughout history. Revolutionary war, Britain had the numbers and experience, but we wouldn't give up our home. WW2 Battle of Britain, Britain held strong against the blitzkrieg (sp?). Also, WW2 Norway fought hard against the Germans (actually lasted longer then the French) and if I remember never completely fell under German control. The Norwegian gold transported all around the country to keep away from the Germans makes for an interesting story. The situation we have right now in Iraq. The one that stands out to me the most would have to be 300 Spartan warriors fighting against an onslaught of forces at the battle of Trilopoli (Trilopoli is awfully close if that isn't the correct name fo the battle lol).

There have been also many armies who fell defending their country, and some a rather embarrassment. Darius III fights Alexander the Great at Phillippi. At stake, the whole Persian Empire. Darius's, persian army, outnumbers Alexander's men 5 to 1. Yet Alexanders presses onward to take complete control off the Persian Empire. Seems like Darius III would keep Persia, Right? WRONG! There was a hole in Darius's troops, an opening, that Alexander sprung his cavarly through and headed right straight towards Darius and his guard. Darius fled, his soldiers lost hope and were slaughtered.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

why didn't Elrond and Galadriel have at least part of their forces engage in fairly suicidal local offensives to further distract Sauron? (Tuor of Gondolin)

They know they won't really be dead forever, but still no Elf wants to die. It must be that horrible stay in Mandos that they dread.

So suicidal attacks: out of the question.

Beside, Galadriel's Lórien is already busy.

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The one that stands out to me the most would have to be 300 Spartan warriors fighting against an onslaught of forces at the battle of Trilopoli (Trilopoli is awfully close if that isn't the correct name fo the battle lol).

Thermopylae. You were referring to the battle of Thermopylae. Tripoli is in North africa, Thermopylae is located at the peninsular southwest of Macedonia, northeast of Attica and Athens.

There were 7000 Peloponnesian troops under the command of Leonidas of Sparta. When the Persians outflanked the Greeks, Leonidas dismissed the allied contigents.

[Saurreg]

One question I have always asked myself was how the armies of ME feed, clothed and replendished themselves during expeditions since Tolkien spoke not of it. Did they travel with long baggage trains and pack mules or did they live off the land they crossed? The former technique leaves a messy logistics trail that can easily be interdicted whereas the latter is subjected to the qualilty of the land crossed as well as the weather/seasons.

Another question I have is the tactic in which the opposing forces adopt. Do they simply blunder into one another and escalate skirmishes into general battles? Or do they penetrate lines of weaknesses and adopt the encircle-and-destroy doctrine?

[Boromir88]

Here is a quote from "The Land of Shadow."

"I don't like the look of things at all," said Sam. "Pretty hopeless, I call it - saving that where there's such a lot of folk there must be wells or water, not to mention food. And these are Men not Orcs, or my eyes are all wrong."

Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields away south in htis wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Nurnen; nor of the great roads that ran away east and south to tributary lands, from which the soldiers of the Tower brought long waggon-trains of goods and booty and fresh slaves...

We do also, know how the fellowship drank Miruvor up the mountain of Caradhras, and of course Frodo and Sam with the Lembas. We also, know there was probably food in Ithilien, or atleast food at Faramir's disposal. Since, he gave Frodo some dried fruits, and other various food.

We know probably the Men of Minas Tirith were well fed, they did have the buttery for them as we see Pippin go there from time to time. Those are their food sources, now Tolkien never really wrote how they "delivered" the food to the soldiers, but they were there at there disposal. I would guess for Orcs and Sauron's mens they just gathered food from areas they crossed. If all else fails time for ORC MEAT!