Defending Minas Tirith a strategic error?

[Fingolfin II]

These are good points, Tuor of Gondolin and Boromir. Though the taking of Minas Tirith was nothing compared to the 'real' Quest to destroy the Ring, it would have gone ill with Frodo and Sam if Denethor and Gandalf did not defend Minas Tirith like they did.

With no defense, thousands more people would have died, Aragorn wouldn't have come to Gondor's aid on the Corsair ships, Merry and Eowyn wouldn't have defeated the Witch-King and Aragorn wouldn't be recognised as the King of Gondor by his own people had the people of Gondor just sat tight, or tried to flee.

However, though Sauron's forces could have focussed on other places, such as Mirkwood, Rivendell and Lothlorien, it wouldn't do him a great deal of good in the greater scheme of things. His forces of orcs, though they far outnumber the free peoples of Middle-Earth, could not penetrate Lothlorien or Rivendell, unless Sauron himself came there. Something he probably wouldn't do without the Ring. Sure his forces may overcome Mirkwood- they overcame Erebor, without the extra forces that he would gain from being defied passively by Gondor- but what would it mean for him in the end? That he has gained Mirkwood and killed Thranduil's people, but in the long run, he still hasn't come closer to achieving his target- to get the Ring.

Sauron attacked Gondor as he thought that the Ring would be taken there, and he feared it's use against him-

'Indeed he is in great fear, not knowing what mighty one may suddenly appear, wiedling the ring, and assailing him with war, seeking to cast him down and take his place.' (The White Rider)

This is what Sauron would have done in the place of the Ringbearer, and this is his folly. If Gondor offered no defense, then Sauron could walk all over them and face a smaller force of Rohan by itself. In the case of such a weaker force (let's say about 3000-4000 people, including Gandalf, Aragorn, Elladan, Elrohir, etc.), Sauron probably wouldn't be foolish enough to use all of his forces against Aragorn and take his bait- or then again, he might.

'Hardly has our strength sufficed to beat off the first great assault. The next will be greater. This war then is without final hope, as Denethor perceived. Victory cannot be achieved by arms, whether you sit here to endure siege after siege, or march out to be overwhelmed beyond the River.' (The Last Debate)

So here we can see that even if Gondor 'endures siege after siege', they still can't distract Sauron's full attention, and that they are only a small (but important) part in Sauron's overall scheme- he despises Men and fears Aragorn. The only way to get his attention is by marching to the Black Gate and posing a direct threat (and mental challenge) to his great personal stronghold of Mordor. If Gondor retreated, or if Denethor did not resist Sauron's forces and defended Gondor like he did, it would be with a smaller force that the might of Mordor would be challenged- one that Sauron may not deem strong enough to be worth emptying his lands for, as they simply did not have the numbers to keep the battle going in earnest long enough for Frodo to reach Mount Doom via his free passage through Mordor (as Gandalf said, in his infinite wisdom during the chapter of the Last Debate).

Another factor in all of my mixed jumble of thoughts is the Nazgul. Assuming that Rohan would have come too late to aid Gondor, but 'stop the orcs from feasting' on the flesh of the Gondorians (as Hirgon said to Theoden), the Witch-King might not have been killed by Merry and Eowyn; a huge blow for the 'goodies'. The King of the Nazgul would be riding the fastest steed (most likely) and might have made it back in time to Mount Doom when Frodo claimed the Ring for his own, so that we might have had the fall of Middle-Earth to Sauron, or alternatively, one of the endings where the Nazgul did make it back in time to Mount Doom (see Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age (The History of the Lord of the Rings, Part Four), which in my opinion, were far inferior to the canonical ending of the Quest.

So, it could have gone either way, really, but I'm more in favour that not defending Gondor would have been detrimental to the Quest, if not for the sole reason that Sauron would deferred his forces to other places, or reinforced the guard on Mordor, so that Frodo and Sam could not penetrate to Mount Doom. Those are just my thoughts, feel free to rebutt them .

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

If someone invaded New Jersey would you withdraw to Pennsylvania?

Before the Siege of Gondor, no enemy has ever stepped foot inside Minas Tirith. That should count against their withdrawal.

As for the strategic implications of such a move, I think you've said much already. I can't think of anything to add yet.

[lindil]

It is certainly a fair question, but there is much [as has been said in the earlier replies] to be said for Minas Tirith as a focal point, for the West and Sauron.

The point of Aragorn's Kingship is a major one. But also it is symbolically the capitol of the Exiles of Numenor. If it falls, their last outpost goes the way of Arnor and the Dunedain their will all become rangers and their families living in some 'hidden fastness'. The Gondorians were seemingly very proud, eeven in their decay. And none maybe more so than Denethor himself. He clearly was not going to move himself one inch from the seat of his power till he was deluded by the palantir into assuming the Ships coming from the South were the Corsairs.

Also, there is something within the demands of the story itself, all military strategy aside that necessitates a City of the good guys. So far in the story Edoras and Bree and Laketown are the representative dwellings of Men. Hardly anything that could have been a central rallying point against Sauron for thousands of years.

Always goods to examine strategies though - and not get oneself caught in a 'seige mentality' in any part of one's life, so a most worthy thread topic methinks.

[Son of Númenor]

In light of its outcome, I don't see how the defense of Minas Tirith could be construed as a strategic error.

However, for the purpose of the thread, I suppose we are putting aside the outcome to look at what other possibilites Gandalf, the Gondorians and the Rohirrim had in their fight against Sauron.

gradually withdraw in a slow, fighting, scorched-earth type pullback

Keep in mind, when the Rohirrim finally reached Minas Tirith, it was already under siege. How then, could they have engaged the enemy in another part of Gondor? They would have nothing to withdraw to except hordes of enemies between them and Minas Tirith. As for the Gondorians, they had no choice but to defend their keep: they were extremely out-manned and had no hope in any kind of major offensive maneuvre against a much larger and stronger army. Their only hope lay in defending a city that was well-protected and hard for enemy forces to penetrate.

The Rohirrim would have had no hope of fighting Sauron's foes head-on, even in a 'scorched-earth' battle; the primary purpose of the scorched-earth tactics use by the Russians in WWII was to destroy supplies so the Germans would freeze or starve to death. In the case of Sauron's armies, they were probably very well-equipped to begin with as far as food and supplies, the weather wasn't nearly as cold as the western USSR's, and the period of time in which the Rohirrim fought Sauron would have been too small for a scorched-earth policy to have any real effect on Sauron's army. The Rohirrim, instead, were able to utilize their strength. The strength of Minas Tirith was in defense, as it had been their primary means of warfare for hundreds of years. The Rohirrim were cavaliers, and so were best utilized in this battle as a charging force, who could do serious damage by attacking the enemy's weak flank, and who could draw attention away from the siege.

Gandalf's plan, even if it could be called a tactical risk (which I would dispute based on the above, and also because any military strategy they had adopted would necessarily be risky against an army as powerful as Sauron's), I don't think it could be called a tactical error. It was well-executed with the means available, and ultimately led to a victory.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Many good points above, and frankly, I would incline towards defending Minas Tirith, just not to the end, but at a given point pulling back through the mountains and back to Rohan. But for arguments sake:

Some comments:
1) The Witch King would be destroyed anyway when the Ring was destroyed.
2) You could envision a scenario where Eowyn killed the Witch King in the East March , edoras, etc.
3) Aragorn still might have a strong claim on the throne if he brought the Army of the Dead to free South Gondor and then harassed part of Sauron's army from South Gondor (and remember, his forces could always retreat through the Anfalas. Imagine Imrahil and Faramir leading M.T. remnants through the White Mountain passes to link up with Aragorn.
4) Rohan's cavalry was probably superior to Sauron's, and they would have had some 10,000 available in Rohan. On their home ground, and with strongholds in Eoras, Helm's Deep, Dunharrow, presumably Orthanc, etc., and with routes of retreat back through Enedwaith they would have been formidable. And battles in history have shown that forces fighting an invader tend to increase in efficacy. One example being the better performance of the Army of the Potomac against the Army of Northern Virginia at Gettysburg, where it was essentially on even numerical terms and arriving in a scattered manner.
5) The retreat would only have to be long enough to give the ringbearers time to succeed.
(And I suppose JRRT might still have made a scenario to save Frodo and the nassty, fat hobbit).
P.S. If destroying the Ring was all important, and the elves were leaving Middle-earth fairly soon (and can eventually be reborn in Aman) why didn't Elrond and Galadriel have at least part of their forces engage in fairly suicidal local offensives to further distract Sauron?

P.P.S. Anyone notice how "counterfactual histories" are rather popular in science fiction and general fiction, such as Newt Gingrich's Gettysburg-based American Civil War novels?

[Boromir88]

Son of Numenor
The Rohirrim were cavaliers, and so were best utilized in this battle as a charging force, who could do serious damage by attacking the enemy's weak flank, and who could draw attention away from the siege.

Nice point made, plust it would work really well to their advantage on a "flat plain." Movie didn't show it well but the land around Minas Tirith, especially Pelennor, was flat.

Tuor of Gondolin
5) The retreat would only have to be long enough to give the ringbearers time to succeed.

I agree, I think retreating would distract Sauron's eye, but still doesnt deal with the orcs left in Mordor. If a retreat happens, Sauron is probably smart enough to lay back and rebuild before he sends out more assaults upon the rest of Middle-Earth. Leaving Mordor still occupied, riding to the black gates emptied Saurons land, something retreating wouldn't do. Who knows? Sauron could get greedy like he is, and see he's got his chance right here and just empty his lands to go finish off the rest of the people of Middle-Earth. I do not see Sauron doing that however.

Tuor of Gondolin
And battles in history have shown that forces fighting an invader tend to increase in efficacy.

There are many examples of these throughout history. Revolutionary war, Britain had the numbers and experience, but we wouldn't give up our home. WW2 Battle of Britain, Britain held strong against the blitzkrieg (sp?). Also, WW2 Norway fought hard against the Germans (actually lasted longer then the French) and if I remember never completely fell under German control. The Norwegian gold transported all around the country to keep away from the Germans makes for an interesting story. The situation we have right now in Iraq. The one that stands out to me the most would have to be 300 Spartan warriors fighting against an onslaught of forces at the battle of Trilopoli (Trilopoli is awfully close if that isn't the correct name fo the battle lol).

There have been also many armies who fell defending their country, and some a rather embarrassment. Darius III fights Alexander the Great at Phillippi. At stake, the whole Persian Empire. Darius's, persian army, outnumbers Alexander's men 5 to 1. Yet Alexanders presses onward to take complete control off the Persian Empire. Seems like Darius III would keep Persia, Right? WRONG! There was a hole in Darius's troops, an opening, that Alexander sprung his cavarly through and headed right straight towards Darius and his guard. Darius fled, his soldiers lost hope and were slaughtered.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

why didn't Elrond and Galadriel have at least part of their forces engage in fairly suicidal local offensives to further distract Sauron? (Tuor of Gondolin)

They know they won't really be dead forever, but still no Elf wants to die. It must be that horrible stay in Mandos that they dread.

So suicidal attacks: out of the question.

Beside, Galadriel's Lórien is already busy.

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The one that stands out to me the most would have to be 300 Spartan warriors fighting against an onslaught of forces at the battle of Trilopoli (Trilopoli is awfully close if that isn't the correct name fo the battle lol).

Thermopylae. You were referring to the battle of Thermopylae. Tripoli is in North africa, Thermopylae is located at the peninsular southwest of Macedonia, northeast of Attica and Athens.

There were 7000 Peloponnesian troops under the command of Leonidas of Sparta. When the Persians outflanked the Greeks, Leonidas dismissed the allied contigents.